So Costas, tell me this...

My aunt and uncle never had kids. Does that make them less of a family?

My sister and her husband don't have kids. They've tried. No luck so far. Does that make them less of a family?

How exactly is it killing family values? Does a gay couple adopting change the way you have your family values? Don't think so. Does it affect the way other people have their family values? Don't think so. Neither you nor others have changed their family values. I don't see how it's killing them. Each person has their own values, and what someone ELSE does shouldn't change that - if it does, then someone has a problem, and it's not the "other" person.

Just because someone can procreate doesn't give them "better" family values than someone else. How about people who can't have kids? How about those children who live in an abusive household? Hardly any good family values there.

You forgot "tinkle."

Not at all, but as a couple, they could nurture a child of their own, or adopted, and instill traditional family values in their children. I'm comparing a gay couple to a man-woman couple. If we look at the reason we even HAVE a traditional family unit to begin with is to propogate the human race, which a gay couple CANNOT DO....EVER! Oh, and let's keep technology out of this, because technology cannot replace the emotional and biological components of this matter (at least not yet)

I'm not defending ALL traditional families specifically. I know there are many abusive 'traditional' families out there. What I don't like is being sold on the idea that gay 'families' are as valid as 'traditional' families. They clearly are not. What would happen if everyone turned gay overnight? The human race would disappear (again...technology aside).

What an individual chooses to do in their own home is their business, but I can't agree that it's normal or in the best interests of the human race.

Fair enough, but since when did anybody care about the best interests of the human race?

I'm still not clear on why a gay family isn't as valid. Procreation may be important to the survival of the human race, but as the ratio is anywhere from 10-1 to 50-1 (depending on whose study you believe), that is a non-issue.

Not to mention that most of the gay population isn't going to procreate either way. They aren't going to go into a straight relationship just to procreate.

I'm sure you don't have this view, but the argument you are using is easily transfered to why people with disabilities shouldn't procreate. After all, wouldn't that be in the best interest of the human race? Let the strong survive?

I'll take another approach...a man and woman being both biologically and psychologically different both bring different contributions to the table when it comes to shaping our future society in our children. A gay couple may have differing personalities, but bring the virtually the same
mindset to the table, and thus deprive children of BOTH sex qualities (I'm not sure if this is clear), and thus the child does not get the nurturing it needs from both sides.

You're right, I certainly wouldn't categorize disabilites the same way, because it does not take away from the two-sex mindset.

Like I said, I've never gay-bashed and never will...but traditional family values can only be instilled through a traditional family model.

Again, I note...why is there 'gay pride day'?? I don't respect that at all - are they saying their sexual makeup is an more than noteworthy than mine? Do we have 'straight pride day'? Maybe we should...if the gay community would simply go about their life without promoting their lifestyle, there would probably be less controversy. I'm not saying stay in the closet, but don't go out of your way to show me you're different and expect that I'll see you as an equal.

But straight people are always "promoting" their lifestyle. How often do you go down the street, and see people holding hands, kissing, and in some instances, basically doing everything but taking their clothes off? You just don't notice it as much, because it doesn't seem out of the ordinary.

Nobody is saying their lifestyle/behavior is more noteworthy. Sometimes you have to shock to get your point across. Bra-burning, anyone? Technically speaking, a gay pride parade isn't for straight people. It's an event for gays. Friends I know who participate do it to show others (who are in the closet) that it isn't a crime to be gay. That they can be proud of who they are, and not feel ashamed, even though a good portion of the general population would like them to be ashamed.

Moby, I wouldn't want them to be ashamed to be gay...it most definitely is not a crime...but have you seen those parades? Come to Vancouver sometime when it's on - it's appalling. If they want to hold hands in public and kiss or whatever like straight couples do, then fine...but a celebration???

Have you heard the accusations of 'discrimination' when it's convenient? Many use it as a crutch to their advantage.

If they didn't go so far out of their way to 'prove a point', then the rest of us wouldn't make a big deal out of it. If you want to be treated equally, don't make a big deal out of your 'lifestyle'. I think the same applies to minority groups.

Oh yes, I'm adding it to the list.

How exactly does the same apply to minority groups? And who would you consider a minority? Please humor our inquiring minds.

Take your pick...any group that feels the needs to promote the fact that they're different - ethnicity, sexuality, etc...

I don't think just because one belongs to a minority group and they celebrate their ethnicity, for example, justifies them to be in the same league as gays in this issue. Gays have a lifestyle that's not normally accepted while ethnic minorities have lifestyles that are partly based on their backgrounds.

In some places, it very much is a crime.

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...but have you seen those parades? Come to Vancouver sometime when it's on - it's appalling. If they want to hold hands in public and kiss or whatever like straight couples do, then fine...but a celebration???

I've been to a couple. And I don't disagree that some of it is WAY over the line. But to me it's not over the line because they are gay. To me, it's over the line regardless of who is involved. I don't like to see that kind of behavior in public from *anyone*.

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Have you heard the accusations of 'discrimination' when it's convenient? Many use it as a crutch to their advantage.

I don't disagree that that does happen...but I'm not sure where this matters in this instance.

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If they didn't go so far out of their way to 'prove a point', then the rest of us wouldn't make a big deal out of it. If you want to be treated equally, don't make a big deal out of your 'lifestyle'. I think the same applies to minority groups.

Maybe, but look at all the instances where this kind of thing happens where people don't make a big deal about it. Irish Catholics have St. Patrick's Day parades. There is a black pride month. There are parades for the Chinese New Year. Why shouldn't people be able to have an event for themselves to celebrate themselves or a facet of their lives?

If it's not natural, why have there been homosexuals around since the begining of modern man (and possibly longer)? Homosexuals can't "breed", so who keeps "making" them?

The same reasons I guess we need all the other minority pride days: recognition/awarness.

That's quite the revelation there: Two men or two woman cannot have children, WOW!



Does this "theory" of family nurturing come from personal experience? Where's your proof?

That's original, did you think of that one yourself?

You just did. (see your Adam & Steve remark)

Again, where's your proof?

Just did. No one is telling you you have to like homosexual lifestyles (I don't approve of it myself either), but technically since "they" were born gay, that means technically it's "natural", and therefore not their fault. Homosexuality is not even close to being the leading cause of declining family values in this country, the REAL reasons are drugs, crime, and peoples indifference to one another.