As for Jeeps not being SUVs... where do you think SUVs originated from?

Brooks Stevens' woodless Willys Jeep station wagon was designed in 1946 and stayed in production until 1963.





In the early 1950's, one thousand Willys Overland Jeep Station Wagons, a popular civilian family car, and the first true SUV, were purchased, outfitted in olive-drab paint and distributed to various Army hospitals for testing as litter-carriers.





There are many kinds of "Jeeps". Not all were made by Chrysler! Not all look like Wranglers. But they all share the same heritage. Jeep was the inspiration for the modern day 4WD SUV, like it or not.

The Jeep Wrangler is only one model of Jeep. I am not sure if Jeff is arguing that the "Jeep" is not an SUV or if the Jeep Wrangler is not an SUV.

I agree that the Wrangler is not a SUV.

Though the Jeep Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, Liberty and Comander are SUVs.

Why in the world are y'all claiming the Wrangler is not an SUV??

Because it only has 2 doors? Both the Cherokee and the Ford Explorer, as well as the Ford Bronco II and Chevy Blazer, came in models with only 2 doors.

Because it's small?? Again, it's not any smaller than any other small SUV on the road.

I don't get it.

The Wrangler is the same size as a Liberty...

If it's not an SUV, then what, pray tell, is it? It's not a "Jeep". That's not a vehicle classification, it's an auto manufacturer...

Of course the Wrangler is a sport utility vehicle. Just as the CJs were ALL SUVs, even before the modern SUV class was even invented.

Edmunds says the Wrangler is a compact SUV, in the same class as the Liberty:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/jeep/wrangler/suv/compact/index.html

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/jeep/liberty/suv/compact/index.html

Kelly's Blue Book says the Wrangler is an SUV:

http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.nyrm?kbb.KY;;KY111&40213&&;;nc;suv&Jeep;Wrangler

I just don't see any proof that y'all have more automotive insight than these two companies... So if they say it's an SUV, then it is...

Bullshit. Jeeps have been known to lengthen their wheelbase to get around 105". How much do you think that costs?

I may get stuck, but it won't be the Xterras fault.....

The bottom line..

I do....

Yup, most people do agree with that.

Actually, not a penny more. I could have bought the Unlimited (aka factory stretched Jeep) for LESS money than what I paid for my SWB. I didn't like the look, and didn't need the LWB. You obviously missed my other post. The Unlimited version comes with 103" wheelbase. Yes, some with older Jeeps stretched their frames. Jeep was paying attention, and offered a factory version. Actually, the Unlimited version was a bargain because it included a hard top and a soft top. I had to pay extra for my hard top.

And before you head down that path, there is an Unlimited version of the Rubicon (Dana 44s, lockers, 4.11 axle gears)

Ok everyone, I posted in this thread back on like page 3, since then I haven't posted anything, let alone read this monstrosity of a thread until last night. I wondered why it just kept getting longer and longer.

First, let me tell you what a Wrangler IS. A Wrangler is a LIGHT DUTY TRUCK. At least that is what Daimler-Chrysler classifies it. Underneath the hood of a Wranger is a sticker stating this much.

Second, Jeff, I don't know you, and after reading posts by you in this thread, I don't want to. People always complain that "Jeep people" are a$$holes. Jeff, you're an "a$$hole" in this respect. Not all Jeep people are a$$holes just like not all Xterra people aren't.

This thread is nothing but petty, futile, asinine comments made by both sides. I would hate for someone to come looking at this thread actually looking to compare the 2. I'm embarrassed, as both a Wrangeler and Xterra owner.

That's right, I drive and WHEEL both....a TJ and X. I owned the X first. Got a feeling for wheeling, then bought the Jeep. Why did I buy the Jeep. I bought a Jeep b/c I wanted a "go anywhere rig", and I got it. Could the Xterra have been my "go anywhere rig"....YES, it "could" have. But buying a used jeep that I could "beat the crap out of" and still get to work the next day (in the Xterra) was the way for ME to go. Building up a Jeep and building up an X are two different things. A Jeep is MUCH, MUCH cheaper. I can flop the Jeep on it's side or roll it onto its top and still be able to drive it. That's hardcore. If I did the same thing in my X, sorry, I'd have to go to the autobody shop. I WITNESSED a SAS'd Xterra roll over on it's top. After all that time(it took like 2 or 3 years for the build), and all that money invested (this was pre Calmini), and beeing a 2001 w/ less than 30K miles on it in 2005, it was TOTALED. I could have made the Xterra trail only, but financially it was more "sound" to buy a trail only rig. I guess I could have bought another Xterra for "trail only", but it would have been too expensive to go through another X build up. I'm not saying a Jeep is better offroad, but I WILL say that it's more ECONOMICAL to take offroad....especially the more "hardcore" you get. I have a trade off, I have a great daily driver that sees some trails, and a great trail rig that sees some pavement. I would not ever imagine daily driving my Jeep b/c of all the mods done to it.

Yeah... I don't really trust Daimler-Chrysler's interpretation on what a vehicle is, or isn't... A PT Cruiser is also classified as a "Light Duty Truck".

The only reason this rating exists, is because it's an EPA Classification. These classifications have been updated, and now the Wrangler is included in the newly formed classification "SUV". Prior to 1999, SUV's didn't exist before, for fuel mileage classification. Now they do. And new Wranglers & PT Cruisers are included in the SUV class, and no longer the Light Duty Truck class.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byEPAclass.htm

Actually, I think this thread proves that many Jeepers are elitists and many Xterra owners are Jeep whores.

If you want to call me an a$$hole just because I mention facts, go for it.

The bottom line is that a highly modded Xterra (or Toyota) can hang with a modded Jeep no problem.

I'm not gonna just sit here and listen to that crap without presenting my side.

If you want to disagree with me, then retort. If you want to call me an a$$hole, then you're certainly no better than anybody posting the assonine sh!t in this thread.

It still amazes me how upset people can get on Internet forums.

Jeff, other people are presenting facts too and you choose to ignore them.....example, a wrangler is a SUV.

I'm not about to get into a "pissing match" here and this is my last post in this thread.

I DO NOT DISPUTE that "The bottom line is that a highly modded Xterra (or Toyota) can hang with a modded Jeep no problem." Each has they're strengths and weaknesses.

The fact that I call you an "a$$hole" stems from the inability you to look past your Xterra. Remember, I am an Xterra owner as well. I have encountered a$$hole Jeep people while wheeling it. At the end of the day, they were impressed and recinded their comments. They learned to look past their Jeep.

Jeff, I am not a Jeep "elitist". I'm a Jeep "realist".

ALL, yes ALL 4 wheel drives (including the Escape) will handle offroad driving. To say, for example, that an Xterra is better offroad than a Liberty, that is asinine. If anyone can back up they're comments, then make them. Meaning, you've driven both vehicles offroad w/ the same mods or in stock form. Ok, so the Liberty doesn't have as much interior room......so when was the last time that you had the rear of your X COMPLETELY filled up, making use of all available space.....and how long was it filled to the brim....one drive? Everything that I have ever put in the rear of my X and had to fold the seat down, I would have had to do the same in the Liberty.

I have SEEN a NEAR STOCK GEO TRACKER out perform a heavily modded Xterra. And the Xterra driver is one of the best that I've seen. Strength v. weakness. So, am I now a "Geo elitist"?

[caps lock]I RESPECT ANYONE WHO TAKES THEIR RIG OFFROAD. EVERY VEHICLE IS INTENDED FOR A PARTICULAR BUYER.[/caps lock] You may ask, why buy a Wrangler when an Xterra is a much better choice?...or....Why would anyone compare these two?

I would take that as a compliment if I were an Xterra driver if they wanted to compare those two.....Why not compare it to the Liberty. The fact that they chose to compare the wrangler to an xterra shows something about taste....to me anyway.

edit: also in my last paragraph I "should" have said something other than comparing a "wrangler" to an Xterra. It goes for ANY vehicle....lets just say "4runner"

Not just amazing. Hilarious. MountainX dude, i don't want to go back on my browser, so i'll just call u MountainX dude,... love the post. This was a really good addition as an accurate presentation of applicable facts to the Wrangler vs Xterra topic. (did my grammar just shoot off the charts?)

anyway... there's no need in getting insane over this. the point is, both rigs rock ass.

here's a good point for you Jeffdude. I see myself buying perhaps a used jeep... one that was previously owned by a girl hopefully, then max it out for trail riding. why? because my Xterra, while being anything i want it to be, is not the vehicle i want to destroy on a hardcore trail. why? it cost me 28k.

the point i wanted to tell u was, haven't you ever wanted one of those cheap ass beater cars like a honda crx or whatever JUST to rag the hell out of it, do parking lot donuts...burnouts, and just seriously beat it? well, take that idea, and just used it towards wranglers. (not to call them cheap cars you wrangler suckers!) but i LIKE my X.. i want it to LAST me and drive well. when i tow something with it, which i do from time to time with business, i want to know that it's not going to take the rear bumper off because of abuse.

another valid point, my vehicle isn't insanely gas efficient so far. under 2k miles still, but averaging 15 mpg...and i drive very, very conservatively. so, putting HUGE tires, and LOADS of heavy ass armor for the trail sounds like a good way to destroy my efficiency.

*btw, does anyone have any idea of how much that stuff will hurt my gas mileage? numbers would help*

Jeep has been making two door, straight axle, open top four wheel drive vehicles for what, 60+ years? I would hope for their sake that they have gotten good at it. That evolution from the old CJ3 to today has also created a bizillion aftermarket options.

The X? 5 years. Not much history there.

Jeff. When you say a modded X can keep up with a Wranger, the real question is: What does modded mean? To an X owner a heavily modded vehicle goes to the extent of an SAS. For most , the average off-road equipped X means a modest 3 inch lift to clear 32 and possibly 33 inch tires. Based on the imperical evidence on this board, there are just a handfull of pre-05 X's running larger than 33inch tires.

Compare that to what is considered a lightly modified Jeep. Strengthened axles, Detroit lockers, 5 inch plus of lift to clear 35+ in tires ect. How many Jeep have been fitted with a roll cage Vs. Xs with cages? I only know of one caged X. Running 35's on a Wrangler is also considered pretty average as well.

So, taking the "average" modded X with 32's stock axles and a modest 3 inch lift, it is a pretty big reach to think that that is on the same level as the "average" modded Wrangler off-road taking things like trail difficulty, traction and rock garden size into consideration.

The "average" Wrangler would be much more likely to excape the same trail with less damage and do it in less time. That's just how it is. If you want to factor other things into the equation like seating capacity, storage, hauling, towing, comfort , zero to 60 speeds, breaking distance ect. then the X might come out on top. But as a pure trail vehicle the X will fall short.

XMountaineer, there's really nothing to support your argument that a stock Liberty is a better trail or off-road vehicle. The Libby suffers from the same limitations that the X does in regards to IFS ,axles size, tire size maximums and wheelbase. And once you start talking about an SASd Libby, it really does not have any advantages over the SAS'd X.

Your thoughts on your Jeep and it's abilities make you come off as a bit arrogant since a stock Jeep is really just a little better than average. The essence of the Jeep is that it is stripped down to the basics and your ability to flop it has more to do with the fact that there really isn't much to a Wrangler and so since they are cheap and basic they are a lot less expensive to roll. Disposable doesn't necessarily mean better. Just cheaper to replace.

For that same reason the Wrangler is so easy to dent without conscience contributes to the same factors that make it a big compromise when it is pressed into duty as a functional daily driver.

your random bullshit is boring me

I thought my last post was the one before, but I can't have people saying lies about what I wrote.

I NEVER ONCE said that a stock Liberty was a better trail or offroad vehicle. If I said anything about it, I said that it was CAPABLE....or COMPARABLE. I have not, and WILL NOT "dis" another vehicle b/c it was someone's choice to buy it to wheel it.

Also, my point about being able to flop the Wrangler on its side was meant to show that it was less expensive to drive on the trail. I have a full cage on my TJ....I feel safer in it offroad than I do my X....so shoot me. I would feel a lot worse if I rolled my X than if I rolled my TJ. For the money, I could not beat the deal I got the Jeep for. If I could have bought an Xterra modified the same way for the same money, it would have been a tough decision. It didn't have to be a Jeep that I bought....I was also looking at Samuri's. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT I BOUGHT A "RIG" FOR ONE THING, AND ONE THING ONLY....I COULD CARE LESS THAT IT'S A JEEP. I did not want to continue to pour money into my X to make it "hardcore", then I would lose a daily driver or have to worry everytime I took it offroad, or pass up obstacles.

You're right. Logic can be dreadfully boring sometimes. Sorry for putting you to sleep.

I now realize this board has a somewhat wider demographic than most of the other forums I post on.

SteelX: For your benefit, from now on, I will try to stick to posts beginning with the following exclamation:

"I Love my X!"



------------------
Ya man! The X just rocks my world!

*cough* ALR *cough*

oh, and Jeff, you're being ignorant, so perhaps I should have said you're embarrassing yourself...I don't live in fear of embarrassment, I just feel bad for you...

Well, whatever.

Cuz all I said was:

I think it's a fair assessment to say that the person being ignorant is the one commenting on posts they haven't read....

As a person who has owned both vehicles I can say that they both have their advantages and dis advantages. The X was BY FAR a better daily driver. I cannot fit a whole heck of a lot of gear in my Jeep but luckily my wife doesn't camp so I only have to pack for me. That just means the dog doesn't get to go.

As far as a modded X being able to keep up with the modded Jeep off road, I invite you to try and follow me up the Hammers in Johnson Valley and then we can talk about it. Is that bad? No. The two different vehicles were just made for two
different things. I think a SAS's X has a chance to do it but it would be tough.

I am in no way putting down the X. I loved mine and miss it often but I had taken it as far as it could go. I wanted a more capable off road vehicle.

Also, as far as Jeeps breaking, mine has yet to break ANYTHING and I have done the hardest trails you can think of.

Couldn't we all just agree that some of us just have different uses for our vehicles and just enjoy what we have.

Jason

BTW, thanks for posting. "Dirt road drivers" Jeep-whorin' was getting old. At least your speaking from real experience.

My bet is that Nissans have probably been up the Hammers. I think Xtoolbox has been up.

An SASed/locked X can keep up with a Rubi no problem.

I'll let you know when mine is done.

SCCX has had 5 members go from modded X's to Rubicons. And it's not that we hated our X's. I loved my Xterra- it opened up an entirely new lifestyle for me. The 3 obsessions that I currently have geocaching, offroading, and camping I owe to my Xterra. Now that I have my Rubi my offroading and caching have continued to advance- the camping however sucks in the Jeep.

My highlight in my Xterra was the GOX Colorado Crossing- an event I don't think I could've done in the Jeep because of lack of storage space.

But wheeling in the X really took its toll physically on the vehicle. I beat the shit out of it early in my offroading hobby. It took a while to learn not to use too much gas pedal. Since I can't do my own repairs I spent a lot of money in the shop instead of on mods. That has changed with my Rubicon. The same trails that used to be difficult with the X are a breeze in the Rubicon. I've yet to have to make a single repair to it. (Knock on wood)

I just wish that I could've afforded to have both. The X for long trips (although having to put Premium Unleaded in my Supercharged sucked even when the prices weren't skyrocketing) and the Rubi for the local trails.

As for the lack of respect the Xterra gets from the Jeeping community- it ain't anything personal. There's a lot of jeepers who don't think any IFS, nonlocked rig belongs on the trail. It isn't just the Xterra they dislike. In fact I think they have more respect for the X than the Liberty.

The best thing to do is go wheeling with other jeep clubs and show them how capable the X really is. One of the well built rigs in SCCX, OOX (Jason), wheels with a club called JustRuns in San Diego. They've got nothing but admiration for his rig and his skills.

My $.02,
Dave

I want my stock 80 CJ5 back.

That's exactly what an SASed Xterra is. The bestt of both worlds...