Jeff, I have to agree with you on this one! I have two boys, one 5yrs old the other 10yrs old. And I'll be dammed if they dont behave well ANYWHERE! I have never spanked them, and only sat their little asses down and spoken down to them when needed. Fortunately, I have established my role without the use of physical force, and they behave very well. I have even had a strager come up to me at the mall while eating and told me what most behave kids I have. Anyway I did not post here to praise, but I do have to agree with Jeff and some of the other posters that society itself (parents) make up fucking deseases like ADD and shit like that, to justify their incompetence of being a parent, setting rules and enforcing them. Parents lead kids! However, today it seems like kids drive the parents around with leaches around their neck. BP people is in my opinion a decease and it is not made-up. But this ADD shit is pure crap IMHO!

How did the cave men survive?

Hmmm, lets see if we can find one and ask him....

Damn, they seem to have disapeared from the face of the earth....

ooops, it seems like they DIDN'T survive.



Hey, there's a difference between survival, and progress.

Hell, cavemen didn't have kidney transplants either, but we don't think no one should have a transplant if they need it.

Cavemen died of all sorts of shit that we survive now...freekin runs killed off thousands of them.

Did they have names for all the ways a guy could be screwed up?

No, they were just screwed up.

Again, having names for things doesn't change whether or not there's someone to collect your garbage or wash your car, etc.

Some disabilities are considered to be mainstream, like wearing glasses or contacts (No cavemen had those either...)....if you need contacts to correct your vision, or you need insulin because your pancreas were eaten by a virus, or you need a serentonin uptake blocker, etc...to help you function better, its the same thing.

If your heart is shot to hell, and you can't work....people understand....if its your brain, they don't....some organs have a better PR department.



BTW - Do not confuse the Air Marshall's actions with the above discussion.

I firmly believe the guy should be shot to kill if he represents a threat, and that there's no way we want a cop playing psychiatrist...

"FREEZE MUTHER FUCKER....What does this inkblot suggest to you?"



I might feel more sorry for someone who steals because they are starving, or kills someone because they thought the person was an alien threat to the planet, but it does't mean they are ALLOWED to commit crimes....it just means that, if possible, we might interpret a just punishment.

I don't care if a guy is going to blow the plane up because he's off his meds, or wants to get 72 virgins, he should be taken out before he gets to do anything dangerous.

Shoot first, pschoanalyze later.

Obviously, you've never met my brothers and I.

Actually, they were real people who weren't perfect. They just didn't have the crutch of all these drugs.

If one of the cavemen had a problem, they solved it......

.....by dropping a big rock on his head!

Jeff -

So your point is that my son should die because cavemen didn't have drugs?

His pancreas are destroyed by a virus, and he needs insulin to live...and you feel that drugs are a crutch that we should not use?

That seems a bit austere.

I mean, I enjoyed seeing your family in those Geico commercials on TV and all, but they seem to have moved on and adopted a more modern lifestyle.

And cavemen DID have drugs...medicine men used herbs and other remedies, many of which actually worked.

Even birds will ingest charcoal to neutralize toxins when they need to.

In short - complaining that modern medicine can keep your parents around a bit longer, and help some people to get through their day, etc., seems mean spirited.

Ever have a drink?

Ever take something for a headache or pain?

Do you or your brothers wear contacts or glasses?

Ever take an antibiotic for an infection?

Who gets to decide which meds are acceptable and which are unacceptable crutches?

Ever have a broken leg? Need a crutch?

Ever have a broken brain? Need a crutch?

Like I said...some organs have better PR departments.

And, I'd appreciate you not telling me my son should die.

Holy fuck TJ you are on fire in this one.....Shazam is entertaining as always.....Off2cjb just keeps showing off his gross ingorance to every part of the world outside of his yard.....keep it coming folks, my sides hurt from laughing

Go back and read my post.

I was talking about all of the newfangled behavioral conditions.

I didn't criticize any drugs that keep sick people alive.

.......

The point is it's easier to say:

"He has ADD"

than it is to say:

"He's a spoiled lil' brat who needs some discipline."

.......

We are letting the Xbox raise our children because it's easier.

Actually, bipolar disorder has been recognized by the medical community for over a century. Post WWII research (by those evil drug companies) created new and improved ways to treat the disorder.

Am I the only one that sees the irony here? You're going to a resort and then complaining that people there are spoiled?

You're joking, right - I mean, this is a troll post, right? Did you just make a leap from bipolar disorder to low wage jobs?

Holy crap! You need to go back and read my post. Also read the quote to the post I was replying to.

Where did I mention bipolar? Admittedly, that's what brought us to the topic, but that's not what I replied to.

.....

While we're on the subject of bipolar, however, I guess I will reply.

I've known a few bipolar folks in my life. They definitely had some problems. To this day, I still take issue with their lack of responsibility. Never, ever was anything their fault. It was always the fault of their condition.

Accountability, temperance and self-discipline all suffer whenever we tell people they can blame all of their mistakes on a disorder. Even if it's a real one.

Does a lack of self-discipline correlate to low-paying jobs? Absolutely.

So you were posting in the Air Marshall thread about how the cavemen didn't need drugs...but did not mean to diss drugs for organs with good PR departments, just for brain related diseases?

Gotcha.





Anyway - ADD and diagnoses like that are very fuzzy concepts....and misapplied by a huge number of interests.

Its a real condition, but, because it gets public schools extra money for kids diagnosed with it, it has become way more popular than its actual occurance.

Dyslexia is another one like that....trouble reading, slap it on and get more $ for the school, etc. But, it DOES exist, just not as often as its diagnosed.

As for people with mental ilness blaming their lack of success on their illness, it is crippling, and can keep them from normal activities....or it could be an excuse...just like stuttering, a limp, hearing loss, and other disabilities that can hinder some people more than others.

One guy loses a leg, and begs the rest of his life, the other guy loses a leg, and goes on to win marathons with a fake one....and sometimes its because they just have that type of personality, and sometimes its because they could never scrape together the money to go to the doctor and get a fake leg....there are variables in all of our lives.

Judging everyone by our own lives or circumstances is bound to lead to erroneous conclusions.

The walk a mile in another's moccasins before saying anything negative about them concept...that way, you're a mile away, and, you have his moccasins....

....and, you have some insight as to how this type of thing happens, and that just because YOU have the resources, financial, mental, physical and community, etc....to overcome what they are experienceing, doesn't mean that they do.

So -Sure, ADD and so forth are over diagnosed, and, can be used as an excuse in school, yadda yadda yadda...but if you really HAVE it, its a real drag...and, while your school might give you extra time to take a test, etc...

Your employer is not going to give you more time...he'll give you a pink slip.

So, once out of the coddling school system...its sink or swim....and those A's you got by getting 2x as much time on the test are worthless if you can't produce in the real world.

Brattiness is another issue.

My kids learned no. Period. They have NEVER had a tantrum if they couldn't have something, and they have always respected others.

I have a kid with ADD....and he is outgrowing it. He got worse grades in public school, and is in college now on the honor roll, graduating this year.

He learned to compensate for it. ADD doesn't mean permission to be a brat....it means the attention span bounces around, etc...behaving and being restless, isn't the same thing.

Sonufa...ok you're right. I guess you didn't directly reference bipolar disorder. In my defense though, throughout the previous 3-4 pages, some people have used bipolar disorder and "ADD" interchangeably. I guess I made a correlation in your post that wasn't there. I'll own up to it. The point is, they are different conditions.

Yup.

Just like kids have been for hundreds of years, way before the shrinks "invented" ADD.

Almost all young boys have fleeting attention spans (to varying degrees). Most outgrow it. The ones who don't are usually more severe cases such a augsbergers.

Psychoanalysis/Psychiatry/Psychology are not exact sciences. So don't purport to present the shrinks' opinions or consensus to me as fact. It simply isn't. They get together and decide (collectively) what is and isn't normal. Which is such a monumental load of bullsh1t because they, themselves are rarely "normal".

........

The bottom line is that Americans are way over-medicated. We're too big of pu$$ies to solve our own problems so we blame some "condition" invented by some shrink 30 years ago.

My nephew has Augsbergers Syndrome (Severe ADD, according the shrinks). But with a little love and patience, he is doing great. Brilliant little bugger, IMO.

No Jeff....are you are turning into Off on us?



ADD is NOT a normal attention span issue which IS normal for kids....any more than mood swings are the same as suicide attempts.

Its a question of degree.

ADD wasn't invented, it was given a name.

Cavemen had ADD...but they were still naming things like "Bison", and "fire", and hadn't gotten around to attention deficit related issues yet.

So, just like we had to explain to Off...

Naming something doesn't mean it never existed....

And

Naming something doesn't make it exist either.

I can say she died of consumption....or the vapors, or AIDS, or cancer...she died of whatever she died of....my name didn't change anything.

So - are too many kids wrongly diagnosed?

Oh yeah.

Are they medicated for something they shouldn't?

Oh Yeah.

Its a huge problem.

But, don't confuse mis-diagnoses with a disease or condition not existing.

So - ADD exists...but too many kids are diagnosed with it, and wrongly medicated....but it isn't a made up condition, it has simply been given a name....

The name wasn't used before, and now its over used....and that's the real issue.

(Besides shooting people before they blow up a plane, regardless of why)

It most certainly WAS invented. It was never even a problem until we started sending every kid to school.

Did it ever occur to you that what you call a disorder actually relates to adaptation that might give that person advantages outside of a classroom?

Please don't write another long post based on your assumptions. The simple fact is that you agree with the shrinks and I don't. As a scientist, it is impossible for me to accept their oversimplified societal model. So we can just agree to disagree on this point.

Is that you kettle??

Holy Shit! I didn't know Tom Cruise ownes/drives an Xterra! My god! Can I get your autograph Mr. Cruise?

Fucking Scientologists... Go back to your planet from which you came, in your Boeing 707 airliner, and let your "gods" or whatever they are, kill you once and for all...

Since you're having so much trouble reading (not the first time), I'll continue the conversation without regard to your silly lil post.

BTW, how tall are you? You sound awfully short over the internet.

.........

Some kids have trouble with school. That doesn't make them abnormal. One of the richest guys I know dropped out after eigth grade. One of the poorest I know has a master's degree.

The trick is to raise our children instead of using drugs and excuses.

"...the blue ones are for the shakes....the green ones for the anger....the orange ones for eternal happiness" ..... quote from a friend of mine who just got out of the nut house after being diagnosed with manic depressive disorder

WOO HOO, keep it coming boys :rolleyes:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask, really, what "exact sciences" are there? (No, I'm not Tom Cruise, I'm serious...) I suppose things like physics and mathematics are considered "exact sciences," but these sciences are still built on ideas and theories developed by normal people over hundreds of years, and they continue to evolve. Even today, people are challenging the fundamental rules of physics - String Theory , for example, which probably sounds crazy to a lot of people but may become "fact" in a few decades. Who knows.

Science is constantly evolving, some areas faster than others. We often use the scientific knowledge we have *now* to explain things we don't understand, and when new ideas (like String Theory, or ADD) crop up, the collective scientific community can either receive these new ideas with interest, or tell the guy he's crazy.

I think you're right on the money, Jeff, when you
state that the medical profession is shoehorning people into a societal model. Things like ADD are relatively new to medical science, and it's entirely possible that doctors aren't recognizing the symptoms correctly, or they're just writing a prescription and moving on to the next patient.

That's why it's important not to shun the development and research of these fields. What we call "ADD" now may be totally different in 200 years. Could be that we have 15 different terms for ADD-like symptoms by the end of the century, and drugs to treat the specific "conditions."

There are plenty of "conditions" that people cannot regularly solve on their own. I suppose you consider alcoholism just a "condition" that people should solve by themselves?

Depending on the research, 30 years can be a LONG time in terms of medicine. Think of it this way: we didn't know about AIDS 30 years ago either. AIDS existed (not among humans, but it did exist), we just didn't have a name for it. When people started dropping dead from simple viral infections, we knew there was something wrong. Imagine if the scientific community had ignored the problem, or just told people they were "pussies," or "deal with it yourself." Instead, most industrialized nations spend billions of dollars a year trying to find ways to treat AIDS, and as such, over the last 30 years they've come up with some pretty impressive treatments.

Maybe if the medical/scientific community had the goverment funding ADD research, we'd know more about it. As it is, we have to rely on the knowledge we have now, but the last thing I want to do is to discourage new research into this field.

Just my 2 cents. I'm a Christian and I have been diagnosed with Panic Disorder. It pretty much falls under the same crap as depression. You can take meds like Paxil, Welbutrin, Effexor, etc. I tried that for a couple years and then got off of it thinking I was cured (damn, that shit's hard to get off of). Anyway, I've had a few attacks since then, so I guess it's not going away. I was given some meds that will help me right away after I take them if I have an attack. It's amazing... I haven't had an attack since just knowing I have them. Once you know the problem and understand it, you can pretty much beat anything without meds. Of course that takes time an effort that some people aren't willing to do or can't do. On the other hand (this is mainly for off), God gave us doctors too so you can't just dismiss meds as all things evil. I do believe the current meds out right now are a "temporary" fix. They do not "cure" anyone. That's great if you can't take the time to properly fix your situation, like therapy or by other means. All the non-believers will hate this, but I know some who have beaten depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, etc. with prayer and receiving supernatural healing.

BTW, if you're wondering, I blame my mom (God love her) for my disorder. She had an obsession with the biggest disasters, deaths and everything else related to that... scared the living crap out of me while growing up. I had no chance. lol

Before we're completely off topic here (TOO LATE!)... when I hear people using comments like 'deserved to be shot', or 'justifiable shooting' or even 'airmarshall had no choice' I think people have overlooked or worse, come to accept getting killed/killing as an 'eventuality'. I think that the airmarshalls were far to indiscriminant in the use of their weapons, especially in such a close, confined, and fragile space. We have alternative technology (to guns) and need to employ this. I do not condone the use of deadly force in this situation as there is far too great an opportunity for error. Doesn't anyone else think that a man's life is sufficient evidence of this? Personally, it is not okay with me that ANYONE shot at, near, next to, or beside me, let alone INTO me! IF you start saying/thinking 'oh, well it's okay to shoot people in that case'... then have you thought... YOU are part of those 'people' that it might be okay to shoot? I suggest that there were PLENTY of alternatives to shooting this guy. Look, if this had occured in, oh... Ireland, England, Scotland, India, Fiji, Samoa, New Zealand, Japan, Greece, Panama, Norway, Indonesia, Monaco (you get the idea) where police do NOT carry guns, they would have had to do something else... and he'd still be alive!
Fact: In the world, only 2 countries allow use of deadly force in cases of self defense: USA and Israel.
My point? There are alternatives; other nations have demonstrated this... and for any of us to accept otherwise puts us and our friends and families in jeopardy MORE than allowing some guy to run down the aisle screaming 'bomb. You may smugly think you've added one more notch to your layer of security, but did you notice yet another loss of life and liberty (literally!)in this era of 'patriot act' panic?
Remember: "The trade-off between freedom and security, so often proposed so seductively, very often leads to the loss of both."

WOW, great word.

5 trucks for you.

We are "shoehorning" people onto an oversimplified model!

FWIW, the AIDS comparison is not valid. The HIV virus exists which causes AIDS.

Your kidding right? Do you even have a clue how the other technology works? Or you just basing it off of the tv?

In the instance where you don't know what he is reaching for and has indicated he has a bomb the only option to completely stop the threat is to shoot. Nothing else on my bat belt of toys would have stopped the guy from clicking a bomb device.

I realize he didn't have one but we don't have the x ray sunglasses yet. They are on backorder.

I don't think he's kidding judging by where he lives. I love warped liberal thinking. Their hearts are in the right place, but they lack the education to come to a reasonable solution. That's why California is so fucked up while no one messes with Texas.

Not that 'facts' have any bearing on you geniuses... but, in light of events subsequent to 9/11 the Pentagon and DHS in their republican wisdom (cough) actually initiated a study on the 'Best Techniques to Prevent Suicide Bombing'. The consultants included Int'l Security Defense Systems (from DALLAS, oooh) and members of the Israeli Defense Forces (who ya might think have SOME experience with this, huh?) and THEY concluded that the WORST option was to shoot the subject because of variety of trigger mechanisms. the WORST solution! ok? The BEST option was subdueing the subject because #1: blast dynamics and collateral damage, but it also went under even THEIR consideration, that if you subdue a 'potential suspect' and are wrong, the WORST is you end up appologizing or to quote them: "And if you get the wrong person, as the London police did, you don't have a corpse on your hands." uh, sound familiar?!
Amazing what an edumacation gets ya.