Shots Fired on Flight That Landed at Miami Airport
Wednesday, December 07, 2005

MIAMI — A federal air marshal fired his weapon at an American Airlines passenger after claiming to have a bomb in his or her bag and running off of the plane, Homeland Security told FOX News.

The marshal pursued and tackled the suspect on the tarmac after the individual reached into his or her bag. American Airlines flight 924 was arriving in Miami-Dade International Airport on Wednesday when the incident occurred.

“The conditions [that would warrant an air marshal to fire his or her weapon] ought to be one where he has identified a threat to security” on the flight, Ron Goldman, aviation attorney and pilot, told FOX News.

“We don’t know if this was an accidental shooting,” he said.

Details surrounding the incident were not immediately clear, but footage showed medical personnel boarding American Airlines flight 924 with a stretcher and around 25 to 30 police vehicles on the scene.

Sources told FOX News the person may have been unbalanced.

Poor fucker - He runs off the plane heading for the bathrooms shouting he needs to drop a bomb and he gets shot!!!

Shoot first ask later.

I bet he was "unbalanced" once a hollow-tip tore through him.

How do you know that is the case? WTF is a "hollow-tip" exactly?

Sorry, should have added a .

from FOX's homepage.

Looks like he was an asshat.

I thought OJ killed him

Guess I'm lost on this one? Hollow tip, hollow-tip?

Hollow point is what they are usually called, and they are usually designed not to go through you. Rather they break up inside of you and tear you to pieces on the inside. Fun, eh?

Better than killing the innocent that may be behind the "bad guy."

he's not "bad" he's just "unbalanced" :rolleyes:

Maybe the bullet will give balance to the force....uh I mean give him balance.

You can't say Bomb on a plane!

I would have shot him if I was the marshall. Actually twice, once to protect everyone and the other for being a dumbass.

If I may... Hollow-points are designed to tear a BIG a** hole in your body on exit. Small entry hole BIG exit hole. Faster kill. The bullets that don't exit are Frangible bullets. Kind of like dirt clods... enough to kill a human being, but not enough force to tear a hole in the skin of the plane.

Now this is interesting

from www.avweb.com

An American Airlines pilot departing from Los Angeles International Airport told air traffic controllers that a missile had been fired at his aircraft and missed, a local ABC News affiliate reported last week. The pilot said he saw a smoke trail pass by the cockpit as the airplane climbed out over the ocean. FBI agents and Homeland Security officials investigated last weekend and said it was probably a flare or a [very impressive] bottle rocket, but they may never know for sure, according to KYW Newsradio 1060. The flight was en route to Chicago and proceeded without further incident.

...dont worry officer its just a "very impressive bottle rocket".

In-

Out-

The news here said that the dudes wife was beside him screaming that he was bi-polar and hadn't taken his medications.

Maybe next time he will take them, no wait, there wont be any next time.

I dealt with bi-polar people plenty at work, what a f*&*ing nuisance they are. You know they are bi-polar, and that they don't really want you any harm, they're just off their meds, but you just don't know when they'll take a knife or something to you.

He got what he had comming to him. Good to see due process step aside and let crime control win once in a while.
Yell bomb, run and reach into a bag while being chased. For all the Marshal knew his wife could have been in on it and trying to cover for him while he pulled a bomb or a gun out.

Darwin wins.

To bad the wife will probably sue everyone and get some sort of settlement.

Not likely. Aviation is about the only place where the law gets to do just about whatever it wants... Especially if the word "bomb" is used. At that point, use of deadly force is fair game.

Have you ever had someone who was mentally ill that you loved? Did he deserve to die?

I see this as a tragedy, he wasn't out to harm anyone. His wife convinced him to fly even though he was pretty much insane. So he was off his meds and went bizzerk. What the air martials did was fine, they were doing their job. But still, it's sad something like this happens. Another needless death.

Another time someones wife made a guy do something he didn't. Its a conspiracy I tell you! All kidding aside, she should have had the common sense to make sure he took his meds before he boarded. She of all people should have known something could have happened with him as soon as he got around that many people in that congested of an area. I'd say part of the blame lies with her.

For anyone who seriously thinks:
...let me share 2 true stories with you:
About a year ago in California a man took a woman hostage at gunpoint. Swat was called in a surrounded the scene. A street officer snuck up on the man while he was talking to the hostage negotiator and at point blank range shot the man in the face. Dead. Turns out the man was retarded, about 4 years old mentally, and the gun was a toy. THE SAME WEEK in England, two officers were called to a house where a man had broken in and taken the housewife hostage at knife point (guns are illegal in Britain). The constables kept swat outside and talked to the man for 2 hours, finally convincing him to hand over the knife, let the woman go, and come with them to seek help... which he eventually did. End of story.
I have a house and family in Los Angeles, and a house and family in Britain. I know which environment I prefer for my family... how about you?

I had friends whose house was broken into by someone who was mentally not all there. He killed the husband with a 2x4 before the wife was able to shoot him with a 12 gauge. What's your point?

And the moral of your story is........... (insert drum roll here)

Don't fucking take people hostage.

We can sit here and point the finger all we want, and come up with all the excuses (insane, retarded, etc.). But I say fuck that. There isn't always any time to sort that out. The marshal had to make a split-second decision, and he made the right one.

It's like people who defend a douchebag who got his ass capped after he broke into somebody's house. When you threaten someone else's life, be prepared to die yourself. It just might happen.

Its a case of suicide by cop.

If there WAS a bomb, it would be different.

If you pretend to be a danger to people the cop has to protect, and get shot as a result, as cops do not have your medical records handy most of the time, its called commiting suicide.

The sad fact is that the average IQ in our prison system is about 70.

Maybe the ones with more cranial fire power don't get caught as often...or maybe the wit-chalenged have a harder time getting a decent job, and a harder time making good decisions to compensate for that.

Bipolar people are almost never violent. They typically are somewhere between wanting to die, and wanting to paint the house while learning russian and planting a garden...maybe all within the same hour, etc.

If you want to die, but don't want to do it yourself, you can get someone else to do it for you...walking in front of an oncoming car/train, etc...pretending to be a bad guy so the cops shoot you to death, etc.

So the fact that a bad guy is really stupid or crazy doesn't change the situation much, they still represent a threat at the time, and I for one would not want to be the cop standing there with my gun out, watching some guy with a potential bomb or AK-47 in his hand, trying to decide if when he pulls the trigger/switch, anything might happen.

If I'm the cop, and I have a second to decide if I have to shoot or call the bluff, I think I'd shoot.

If the guy's wife is yelling "He's off his meds, and trying to get you to shoot him", rather than "He's off his meds, don't shoot him", I might go for a leg shot, etc. as a compromise, or tell HER to go and get the overnight bag/AK-47 from him, etc.

I've been shot, it hurts like a Mo Fo...but if I was a lunitic with a bomb switch, and I wanted to set it off, I think I could flick a switch unless the shot took me out completely...so, you have to shoot to kill/hit center of mass, etc.

Someone else was complaining to me that they should have just wounded him, not killed him, like just shoot him in the hand....

I said that's in the movies, real cops are lucky under a situation like that to hit ANYTHING with a handgun, let alone miss his head and hit his hand, etc...you aim at his middle, and hope you don't miss him completely.



If you are the air marshall, and the guy gets to blow up the bomb he says he has...you screwed up big time.

If you get him off the plane first, that's fine...but the guy and the threat has to be neutralized, that's job one.

So - I feel sorry for all involved, but what happened did not have too many practical alternative endings.

You have two houses and two families?

Isn't bigamy illegal?

As far as the dead dude -- I understand where you're coming from. Isn't hindsight a remarkable luxury?

The guy, on a crowded plane, indicated he had a bomb. Not a knife (which takes time to kill with), or a gun (which could kill a few people before he is taken down) . . . but a bomb. A split-second, and a hundred, maybe two hundred people could be dead.

I don't really care what his mental disability was. Bi-polar? Take your meds. Depressed? Take your meds. Think you're Jesus? Go tell off2cjb . . . you two can chat.

But you do NOT -- EVER -- threaten the lives of a hundred people with an explosive device and expect to be talked down.

I think the marshals did the only thing they could do, and they did it well.

Exactly.

Forgive the 'soapbox', but like TJ:
...having been shot and having shot at, my perspective is a little different. In my case (the short version)I was in the Rodney king riots in L.A. as a deputy, and two guys charged me while a third distracted me. I was undercover so didn't look armed, but as soon as one guy bounced his fist off my left cheek I whipped a 9mm up to his temple... eye to eye. I could tell he was surprised by the loud, "oh f*ck" comment... then I fired 'right beside his face' whereupon he and all his buddies vanished into thin air.
I reported the shooting, as required, and was promptly written up for discharging my weapon in public because it was considered a "justifiable kill" which I refused to make. Then I quit, and am much happier 'helping people' in SAR vs working under the option of having to decide who lives and who dies.

Many good arguements have been made in this thread. I think that, based on what I have heard through various news sources, that the air marshall did his job. They are there to project the plane from terrorists -- which is what this guy became as soon as he mentioned the word "bomb" on the plane.

I do have a family member who is bi-polar. I grew up seeing all sides of the disorder. One of those sides is violence and wanting to physically hurt other people. It's sad, but it is a fact of life.

If the air marshall had not done something and this guy really did have a bomb everybody would be saying that our air marshall system does not work... there would be congressional hearings... etc. etc. blah blah. It's pretty much a case of a no win situation.

My opinion, bottom line: the air marshall and the law enforcement did the right thing. Making those people exit the plane with their hands on their heads was good. Checking all their luggage was good. Blowing up the suspect luggage was good. What if that guy was a suicide bomber who was merely trying to flush out the air marshalls so that another terrorist on the plane could inflict a lot of casulties? These extremists seem to welcome dying for their cause.

100% agree. Situation sucked for everyone involved.

Its only another needless death after the fact. Suppose they did find a bomb in his bags, is his death worthy now? The shooting was justified. An idiot lost his life. Boohoo. Maybe the next idiot who has this thought passing through his mind won't act on it now.

Mentally ill people are not idiots. They can't help their condition, though clearly he (and others in that condition) should do the things within their control to help themselves (like take their meds). All that aside, they still have families and friends who love them just like anyone else.

So while the man's behavior was bizarre, and the shooting justified, and the Air Marshals acted appropriately blah blah...it's still a tragedy. Dismissing a life so callously, and calling mentally ill people idiots, only shows your own ignorance.

Possible bipolar disorder, not proven. Then again, I don't believe in all these made-up mental illnesses just to cover for people who commit crimes or fail to get a job.

Fair enough. We don't know the whole story on this guy. And you're right, there's a lot of "mental illness" that translates into "I don't want to take responsibility for what I did."

Hey psychotic Christian nutjob, BiPolar Disorder is a real psycological condition.

You of all people should f**king know screwball.

I f**king hate everyone of your hate filled posts.

You're an embarrassment to everyone who goes to church.

What did you think would happen? :rolleyes: Saying he got what had what he had comming to him has nothing to do with him being bi-polar, he made a bomb threat, which as I recall is a very serious offense, especially at an airport. Honestly, what do you expect the marshal to do? Ask him he's serious?

No one said it wasn't comin to him.

People are just saying that it sucks cause he was just off his meds and went apeshit

Im just pissed at the local pharisee who has no idea what it is to be a Christian.

Whatever. Could you please be more less smart. You are an embarrassment to human kind. Who says bipolar is a real mental disorder? Not me. Its just another made up illness so folks don't take responsibility. With that in mind, the kind pharmacuetical folks invented drugs to cure an invented mental disorder. Get over yourself. Take some responsibility for your own actions and quit blaming some made up disease.

Please oh glorious one, define Chrisitan!

Sorry...had to repost that sentence. I've never seen a more mindboggling example of bad grammar.

There's...like....fifteen things wrong with that sentence!

Not only that, it's got irony thrown in to boot!

Isn't that what Chrisi is trying to get, when Janet leans out and pours a bucket of water on her?

You know, in the opening credits of "Three's Company"?



Come and knock on our door . . .

Ok, that one took me a minute, well done!

Nice one Grayham. Sorry about the spelling error.

Just another news story...
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html

If infact he did yell "bomb" the killing was justifiable. However, if as this article states no one yelled bomb and was just stressed about being in a confined space for X amount of hourse then I don't think it was. Otherwise that mean marshalls could kill anyone with a reaction to any phobia.

Even if he did not yell Bomb!, which he probably did, if you don't do what they tell you, when they tell you, you are asking to be shot.

So far, only one person from the plane with this story? I don't buy it. Sounds like someone who is bitching about with their warped beliefs that he shouldn't have used "zero tolorance" force. :rolleyes:

That's because you're not a psychiatrist. It's not simply a "mental disorder," it's essentially a significant chemical imbalance in the brain that severely alters the physiological nature of a person's body.

Respectfully, what other "made up" illnesses are you referring to? Are you referring to things like Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) or the variations of ADD ("ADHD"/etc)?

Actually, there's no cure for BD, and there are very few effective treatments for BD which don't leave the patient in either a semi-comatose state or hovering around the room like a crack head. The treatments that are available are often very simple and very addictive - lithium, for example - not the complex pharmacuetical-developed neuroinhibitors that you'll find in doctor-prescribed things like Wellbutrin, Prozac, Zyban, etc.

I think you're confusing ADD-type things with BD, a serious medical condition. If this guy really is bipolar and he missed some meds, he may have been reeeeealllly wacked out. Imagine a heroin addict who hadn't gotten their fix for a few days.

Hmmm...based on the similarity of their beliefs on this, is off2cjb really Tom Cruise?

It sure seems easy for people to dismiss stuff that doesn't fit within their view of the world. Mental illness is real, and if you're fortunate enough not to be touched by it in whatever way, good for you, but try a little empathy for those who are.

Sigh...ok, for the record...I have suffered with Bipolar Disorder for the last 21 years. During that time I have been medicated with just about every Mood Stabilizer out there; Paxil, Prozac, Zyprexa, Lithium, ...you name it, I've had to ingest it. Fortunately, I have had an angel by my side (and NO, I don't actually believe in Heaven, Hell or god), namely my wife of the last 18 years.

When I am on the upswing (Manic-phase) she gives me a pad and pen to write, or a paintbrush and paint(housepaint, more often than not) to use my energy even if it is 3 am. When I an experiencing a trough (Depressive-phase) she keeps an eye on me and, if need be, rams my meds down my throat. The woman is on me like a hawk making certain that I go to my Doctors appointments and that my scripts are always filled. She doesn't do these things FOR me, she just (*cough*) gently reminds me to stay on top of these things.

My question is, how loving and concerned was this guys wife that she allowed him to be "off his medications"? Sure, she'll be portrayed as the caring, commited spouse in the courtroom during this "wrongful death" suit, but if she had been genuinely concerned for his wellbeing she would not have allowed him to travel with his medication. I lost my meds once on a trip and a visit to a local hospital emergency room, once they contacted my Psychiatrist back home, gained me a prescription for one weeks worth of my meds.

If I EVER got to the point of being a threat to others due to my condition, I hope that some level headed individual would do me the honor of putting me down.

'nuff said,

LandPirate

Off2cjb, please remind LandPirate that he is just another idiot who is faking a "made-up mental disorder". It would just be the Christian thing to do, you insufferably smug, ignorant piece of shit.

Stop humping Jesus. He doesn't like it.

Oh fuck you off2cjb, please read a book, visit a doctor, anything, but please get some instruction before posting ignorant things like that. I knew you were a nut job, but I'm starting to understand why some many people hate your posts.

I've never seen the great pyramids or Australia, doesn't mean they never existed. 200 people on the plane will have heard 200 differents things.

Thanks for making sure were safe you Tom Clancy wannabe.

They always look normal until they start eating you face with a spoon.

Shahram, you wouldn't know anything about the Christian thing to do. You just keep up with your hatred. We expect nothing less from you. You have one more than one occasion shown your hatred towards Christians and intolerance towards others.

LandPirate, sorry about your condition. I still do not believe in the legitimacy of the "illness." Everyone has mood swings. Everyone. That doesn't mean we go out seeking the newest greatest drug available. I am not trying to offend you personally, I just don't believe in these types of personality disorders.

Information from WebMD:
Bipolar disorder is also known as manic depressive disorder.
About 1% of Americans have manic depressive disorder.
Bipolar disorder is usually diagnosed in late adolescence or early adulthood.
Bipolar disorder causes dramatic mood swings, from highly active restlessness to sad and hopeless behavior.
The diagnosis of bipolar disorder is based on symptoms over time. There is no blood test or x-ray that confirms the diagnosis.
With proper treatment, most people can achieve substantial improvement in their symptoms.
While primary care doctors may treat some bipolar patients, most experts feel that bipolar patients are best treated by a psychiatrist.
When under treatment for bipolar disorder, it is very important to be sure your physician is aware of all other medicines you are taking.
Family members and patients should be attentive to the fact that bipolar patients have an increased risk for suicide and should seek care immediately if signs or symptoms of suicidal ideas arise in the patient.
Bipolar patients should be sure that their thyroid function is assessed by their physician. Scientists all agree that there is no single reason this "illness" occurs.

Reading those facts, y'all would have to say we all have those moods from time to time. Yes, I do not agree with ADD either. Most people with this "illness" are boys. Boys have always been more "hyper". We are wired that way.

Have fun with that. Funny how some of you claim to have a tolerance for everyone until their opinion differs from your own.

Okay...I wouldn't know about the Christian thing to do, coming from the guy who thinks torture, public humiliation and execution are OK with JC. Right.

Yeah, I'll keep up with my hatred. You just stand there with open arms with love for your fellow man.....y'know, except for fags, towelheads, petty criminals, people who think marijuana should be legal....basically all the people who are going to rot in hell while you and Jesus laugh and point. Right.

"We expect nothing less?" Who's we, you and....the rest of the people who think you're a fucking moron? You off your meds again?

"You have one more than one occasion shown your hatred towards Christians"...I have ONE more than ONE occasion? Are you trying to tell me I have TWO occasions? Are you as bad at math as you are at..........everything else you try to do? Here's goin' for number three! In case you didn't know, that's the number after one more than one.

I've gotta ask--does it bother you when you suddenly realize you're the dumbest motherfucker in the building? Or have you just not noticed? I just can't get over that someone as fucking dumb as you has made it thus far without accidentally choking to death on a marble or a fishing lure or a socket wrench. Do you actually drive around with that level of intelligence, in a car, on a public road? How do you function? Do you get sick of people insulting you and laughing in your face every time you offer an opinion? Do you think everyone has that same problem? Do you think it's common for someone to be called an ignorant, dunderheaded, knuckle-dragging simpleton by a gallery of onlookers EVERY GODDAMN TIME HE OPENS HIS MOUTH? HUH? DO YOU?

Wake up, little boy.

Thank you Shahram, spoken like a true 12yr old. I bet you were crying when you typed out those kind words of hatred. Carry on my brother. Obviouosly I get to you, which really upsets your tiny manhood so much knowing that you cannot ever get to me. In this post of yours, you have proven, without a shadow of doubt, that you hate Christians. You have proven you are probably the most immature person on the board. Tou have proven that within the first three sentences of most of your posts, you resort to cowardly name calling. You have proven your hyprocrisy. You make me laugh with your attempts at any rational debate. Oh, by the way Shahram, sticks and stones, sticks and stones.

You missed several parts from the article. I'll give your "creative editing" approach a try:

(From WebMD.com )

"In addition to changes in moods, some people with bipolar disorder also have symptoms of anxiety, panic attacks, or symptoms of psychosis."

Psychosis, eh?! Last time I checked, that wasn't a common state of mind for most people, but that does explain a few things! Apparently psychosis overcomes you from time to time - I'm starting to understand why you think the way you do.

I don't think Shram hates christians offhis rocker.

He just hates you.

You continue to think when he slams you he slams christians.

Luckily the other christians on this board don't stand by you lmao.

You are the poster child for idiots. No seriously

Wow.

Its like a charactor made up to demonstrate the wrong side, like in Candide, etc.

Off....you took the real stretch of looking something up, that's progress....but, you did not know how to interpet what you read, and came to the wrong conclusion, or, read it really quickly looking for a way to use it to support your contentions...and missed that it didn't.

For example, if a disease is diagnosed during childhood...the word diagnosed does not mean starts and stops...it essentially means when the disease was recognized in the patient.

Lets say you were dropped on your head as a baby, and it damaged your brain....and you're still a moron as an adult....but they knew about it since you were a baby....it was diagnosed when you were a baby, but you were plagued with the brain damage until you were an old man.

Diagnoses during childhood, and symptoms lasting your entire life...see the difference between that, and what you said?

I have a son who's in his twenties now with Diabetes....he was diagnosed with it in childhood, a virus destroyed his pancreas. He's a strapping adult now, who was diagnosed with a disease in childhood....and still has it....and always will unless a cure is found, etc.

See the difference?

Diagnoses occurs as a child, but, the disease can continue from when it was discovered in the patient?

(BTW - the above moron was just an example, it doesn't have to mean you in case you thought I was merely insulting you...)

Also - you missed that the diagnoses was an actual disease, not a made up illness.

You missed the difference between the mood swings normal people can experience, and the mood swings a bipolar person can experience.

Bipolar people commit suicide when down, normal people are sad.

Normal people feel good when their mood is up, bipolar people are manic under the same conditions....

Its like saying the people starving to death in the Sudan, etc...are full of shit, you went a whole day without eating once, and it wasn't that bad....

See the difference?

You have not experienced the full spectrum of human emotion or tragedy...and yet you attempt to force those experiencing what you have not to fit into your narrow world, by just clipping off the parts of their lives that are too broad to fit.

Open the end of your imagination up where it faces the rest of humanity, and let some in.

I love off2blowjc . . . he's humorous.

Off - I lived with a bipolar girl for 5 years. The disease does exist. If you saw a person with a hand cut off, you would acknowledge that the person had a medical problem because you could see it. But there are other problems with the human body that can't be "seen". Your brain is the "processor" for your body. What happens when that "processor" isn't working right, or like other people? That person acts or does things differently. Do you think that the human brain can have no illnesses at all. If you do, then how would you know it was sick if you can't see a physical problem? You can't simply yell at the person "Stop acting like that and settle down!"

By the way, if any of you Atheists/Agnostics/Christians want to really hammer it out, go here:

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/forum/

Nice site, but bad name. Mike, I never said I didn't believe any mental illness. I said, today, many of these illnesses are made up so people do not have to deal with responsibility for their actions. I believe that the drug companies are also to blame with all this medication that does not do anything but make people become the people we want them to be. Are there chemical inbalances in the brain, yes. Does you ex have them, maybe. If you are on to believe that every boy who creates a little mischief should be placed on ridalin, you are wrong. That is what our society is doing today. Drugs instead of parenting. If it isn't ADD, then its Biploar. If isn't bipolar, its because my daddy whooped me. People today have more excuses for their actions than ever before. Thank you liberals. You all claim that you love everyone, but only when you control them and use drugs to make them fit the role you thing they should play. God forbid, a child have a tempertantrom in the store. Must be cause for drugs.

I can agree that a mental illness excuse could be used to get of of all manner of personal responsibility. The hard part is, how do we really know if a particular mental state is made-up or a real problem? Thats where we have to rely on the medical profession. They have all the years of training. They know which drugs to try. And I know from experience with my girlfriend that they certainly Do Not all work well. It's a very hard thing to treat, because a lot of the drugs have the desired effect, but in reality, the true mechanics of how the drug actually works is not understood for some of them. If there is no real mental illness, then the doctor has got to tell the person that also, not cow tow to the drug industry and prescribe needless pills. So I can understand how you can be skeptical. How would you personally get to the root cause of a mental illness, if not the diagnoses of a doctor?

Having never been diagnosed with anything serious in my mind, I can't tell you what I would think. I do know this, if given any sort of bad news, I would seek at least three different opinions from three totally distinct doctors. If all three tested, evaluated, and said I had the "illness", then I guess I would believe them. I would not ever take one doctor's opinion as gospel.

Off - as you are still lumping symptom sets you don't understand together as one problem, rather than addressing the actual issues being discussed, can I ask you to concentrate on the actual issue being discussed...

(Bipolar)

So, while it is common for some symptom sets, such as ADD to be mis-used by various parties, it is also medically accepted that some diseases do in fact exist, and in fact have no relation to the examples you listed in your lumping.

So, a sentance that says things like, all cars are unreliable, like Hyundai's, Kia's, Yugo's, and Toyota's....has lumped a Toyota in with the other's...

The question is why did you lump things that don't go together?

Its probably because you didn't know the difference, as it included knowledge outside of your resources.

This was my point...just accept there are things you don't know, and that there are experiences you have not had. (This goes for everyone of course...)

Then, apply that concept to interpretation of what's going on around you (As others have been doing, and what others have been asking you to do...)

This will help to avoid you saying inflamatory comments that minimize what others have gone through, in your attempts to make their experiences fit within yours.



As you have already explained that you were tired of there being a syndrome for everything nowadays, etc...well, OK, you are...and that's OK....but as science progresses, we find names for things that used to be a bit more vague.

In the old days "He's too stupid to read"...now, we say why he can't read...his eyes can't focus, his brain can't process spatial relationships well, he's more auditorily oriented, etc.

So, knowing more specifically what a kid's problem is in school makes it seem like there's all these new problems that were never talked about before.

The kids always had these problems, but were just caled stupid, slow, etc....now, they get glasses or are taught to compensate for their weaknesses.

I'm sure, as time goes on, there will be no shortage of new names for things we always took for granted...and what we have now will seem quaint and simplistic to our grandkids, etc.

So - get used to there being names for things that you never had names for, and diseases that you never heard of, etc.

It's like those SAT tests I took in high school:

Which item does not belong?
A) Foot
B) Leg
C) Arm
D) Flamethrower

I don't think off2cjb is bipolar.

I think he's just a faggot.

(Wow, I managed to offend both sides with one single post! Score!)

Seems to me the bottom line here is the critical difference between "why" and "what," i.e., understanding why someone did something vs. excusing it. If somebody commits murder and the defense calls experts who testify that the killer is this, that, or the other, fine. Now we understand more about why it happened. But it doesn't affect guilt or innocence, and with very few exceptions, it shouldn't change what the punishment should be.

So taking the air marshal incident as an example, the guy's actions - regardless of the cause - make the marshals' actions reasonable and justifiable. If the guy is indeed bi-polar, we have a better understanding of why it happened and can have more empathy for him and his family and friends than we'd have if he was an extremist bent on murdering innocent people.

I also think "off" is well, off in stating that people make up conditions or mental illnesses to explain their actions. The conditions are real, what some people do is hijack them as an excuse for what they've done. The fact that mental illnesses are used as inappropriate excuses doesn't mean they don't exist.

LOL!

How did this end up in the ALR?

I agree.

I was a hyperactive lil' fvcker. So are most of the lil' sh1ts. So what? We havta give a name to being a kid?



WTF? Have a shot. Keep having more til your legs ain't restless!

.........

It's bullsh1t. How the h3ll did the cavemen survive without all of these drugs?

Instead of encouraging good behavior, temperance and restraint, we just use drugs to solve all these problems. The reason we didn't have diagnoses for all of these "disorders" 50 years ago is because lil sh1ts that didn't behave got slapped, plain and simple.

My wife and I won't even go to a resort that allows children because peoples kids are so damn spoiled, we can't stand to be around 'em.

.....

To the folks with the lil' brats:

If you don't want to teach your kids how to behave, it doesn't bother me. Somebody hasta wash my truck and collect my garbage. If they are too disfunctional to handle that, then they can live in a cardboard box and beg for their "Night Train" fund.

Jeff, you can use big boy words here.

Jeff, I have to agree with you on this one! I have two boys, one 5yrs old the other 10yrs old. And I'll be dammed if they dont behave well ANYWHERE! I have never spanked them, and only sat their little asses down and spoken down to them when needed. Fortunately, I have established my role without the use of physical force, and they behave very well. I have even had a strager come up to me at the mall while eating and told me what most behave kids I have. Anyway I did not post here to praise, but I do have to agree with Jeff and some of the other posters that society itself (parents) make up fucking deseases like ADD and shit like that, to justify their incompetence of being a parent, setting rules and enforcing them. Parents lead kids! However, today it seems like kids drive the parents around with leaches around their neck. BP people is in my opinion a decease and it is not made-up. But this ADD shit is pure crap IMHO!

How did the cave men survive?

Hmmm, lets see if we can find one and ask him....

Damn, they seem to have disapeared from the face of the earth....

ooops, it seems like they DIDN'T survive.



Hey, there's a difference between survival, and progress.

Hell, cavemen didn't have kidney transplants either, but we don't think no one should have a transplant if they need it.

Cavemen died of all sorts of shit that we survive now...freekin runs killed off thousands of them.

Did they have names for all the ways a guy could be screwed up?

No, they were just screwed up.

Again, having names for things doesn't change whether or not there's someone to collect your garbage or wash your car, etc.

Some disabilities are considered to be mainstream, like wearing glasses or contacts (No cavemen had those either...)....if you need contacts to correct your vision, or you need insulin because your pancreas were eaten by a virus, or you need a serentonin uptake blocker, etc...to help you function better, its the same thing.

If your heart is shot to hell, and you can't work....people understand....if its your brain, they don't....some organs have a better PR department.



BTW - Do not confuse the Air Marshall's actions with the above discussion.

I firmly believe the guy should be shot to kill if he represents a threat, and that there's no way we want a cop playing psychiatrist...

"FREEZE MUTHER FUCKER....What does this inkblot suggest to you?"



I might feel more sorry for someone who steals because they are starving, or kills someone because they thought the person was an alien threat to the planet, but it does't mean they are ALLOWED to commit crimes....it just means that, if possible, we might interpret a just punishment.

I don't care if a guy is going to blow the plane up because he's off his meds, or wants to get 72 virgins, he should be taken out before he gets to do anything dangerous.

Shoot first, pschoanalyze later.

Obviously, you've never met my brothers and I.

Actually, they were real people who weren't perfect. They just didn't have the crutch of all these drugs.

If one of the cavemen had a problem, they solved it......

.....by dropping a big rock on his head!

Jeff -

So your point is that my son should die because cavemen didn't have drugs?

His pancreas are destroyed by a virus, and he needs insulin to live...and you feel that drugs are a crutch that we should not use?

That seems a bit austere.

I mean, I enjoyed seeing your family in those Geico commercials on TV and all, but they seem to have moved on and adopted a more modern lifestyle.

And cavemen DID have drugs...medicine men used herbs and other remedies, many of which actually worked.

Even birds will ingest charcoal to neutralize toxins when they need to.

In short - complaining that modern medicine can keep your parents around a bit longer, and help some people to get through their day, etc., seems mean spirited.

Ever have a drink?

Ever take something for a headache or pain?

Do you or your brothers wear contacts or glasses?

Ever take an antibiotic for an infection?

Who gets to decide which meds are acceptable and which are unacceptable crutches?

Ever have a broken leg? Need a crutch?

Ever have a broken brain? Need a crutch?

Like I said...some organs have better PR departments.

And, I'd appreciate you not telling me my son should die.

Holy fuck TJ you are on fire in this one.....Shazam is entertaining as always.....Off2cjb just keeps showing off his gross ingorance to every part of the world outside of his yard.....keep it coming folks, my sides hurt from laughing

Go back and read my post.

I was talking about all of the newfangled behavioral conditions.

I didn't criticize any drugs that keep sick people alive.

.......

The point is it's easier to say:

"He has ADD"

than it is to say:

"He's a spoiled lil' brat who needs some discipline."

.......

We are letting the Xbox raise our children because it's easier.

Actually, bipolar disorder has been recognized by the medical community for over a century. Post WWII research (by those evil drug companies) created new and improved ways to treat the disorder.

Am I the only one that sees the irony here? You're going to a resort and then complaining that people there are spoiled?

You're joking, right - I mean, this is a troll post, right? Did you just make a leap from bipolar disorder to low wage jobs?

Holy crap! You need to go back and read my post. Also read the quote to the post I was replying to.

Where did I mention bipolar? Admittedly, that's what brought us to the topic, but that's not what I replied to.

.....

While we're on the subject of bipolar, however, I guess I will reply.

I've known a few bipolar folks in my life. They definitely had some problems. To this day, I still take issue with their lack of responsibility. Never, ever was anything their fault. It was always the fault of their condition.

Accountability, temperance and self-discipline all suffer whenever we tell people they can blame all of their mistakes on a disorder. Even if it's a real one.

Does a lack of self-discipline correlate to low-paying jobs? Absolutely.

So you were posting in the Air Marshall thread about how the cavemen didn't need drugs...but did not mean to diss drugs for organs with good PR departments, just for brain related diseases?

Gotcha.





Anyway - ADD and diagnoses like that are very fuzzy concepts....and misapplied by a huge number of interests.

Its a real condition, but, because it gets public schools extra money for kids diagnosed with it, it has become way more popular than its actual occurance.

Dyslexia is another one like that....trouble reading, slap it on and get more $ for the school, etc. But, it DOES exist, just not as often as its diagnosed.

As for people with mental ilness blaming their lack of success on their illness, it is crippling, and can keep them from normal activities....or it could be an excuse...just like stuttering, a limp, hearing loss, and other disabilities that can hinder some people more than others.

One guy loses a leg, and begs the rest of his life, the other guy loses a leg, and goes on to win marathons with a fake one....and sometimes its because they just have that type of personality, and sometimes its because they could never scrape together the money to go to the doctor and get a fake leg....there are variables in all of our lives.

Judging everyone by our own lives or circumstances is bound to lead to erroneous conclusions.

The walk a mile in another's moccasins before saying anything negative about them concept...that way, you're a mile away, and, you have his moccasins....

....and, you have some insight as to how this type of thing happens, and that just because YOU have the resources, financial, mental, physical and community, etc....to overcome what they are experienceing, doesn't mean that they do.

So -Sure, ADD and so forth are over diagnosed, and, can be used as an excuse in school, yadda yadda yadda...but if you really HAVE it, its a real drag...and, while your school might give you extra time to take a test, etc...

Your employer is not going to give you more time...he'll give you a pink slip.

So, once out of the coddling school system...its sink or swim....and those A's you got by getting 2x as much time on the test are worthless if you can't produce in the real world.

Brattiness is another issue.

My kids learned no. Period. They have NEVER had a tantrum if they couldn't have something, and they have always respected others.

I have a kid with ADD....and he is outgrowing it. He got worse grades in public school, and is in college now on the honor roll, graduating this year.

He learned to compensate for it. ADD doesn't mean permission to be a brat....it means the attention span bounces around, etc...behaving and being restless, isn't the same thing.

Sonufa...ok you're right. I guess you didn't directly reference bipolar disorder. In my defense though, throughout the previous 3-4 pages, some people have used bipolar disorder and "ADD" interchangeably. I guess I made a correlation in your post that wasn't there. I'll own up to it. The point is, they are different conditions.

Yup.

Just like kids have been for hundreds of years, way before the shrinks "invented" ADD.

Almost all young boys have fleeting attention spans (to varying degrees). Most outgrow it. The ones who don't are usually more severe cases such a augsbergers.

Psychoanalysis/Psychiatry/Psychology are not exact sciences. So don't purport to present the shrinks' opinions or consensus to me as fact. It simply isn't. They get together and decide (collectively) what is and isn't normal. Which is such a monumental load of bullsh1t because they, themselves are rarely "normal".

........

The bottom line is that Americans are way over-medicated. We're too big of pu$$ies to solve our own problems so we blame some "condition" invented by some shrink 30 years ago.

My nephew has Augsbergers Syndrome (Severe ADD, according the shrinks). But with a little love and patience, he is doing great. Brilliant little bugger, IMO.

No Jeff....are you are turning into Off on us?



ADD is NOT a normal attention span issue which IS normal for kids....any more than mood swings are the same as suicide attempts.

Its a question of degree.

ADD wasn't invented, it was given a name.

Cavemen had ADD...but they were still naming things like "Bison", and "fire", and hadn't gotten around to attention deficit related issues yet.

So, just like we had to explain to Off...

Naming something doesn't mean it never existed....

And

Naming something doesn't make it exist either.

I can say she died of consumption....or the vapors, or AIDS, or cancer...she died of whatever she died of....my name didn't change anything.

So - are too many kids wrongly diagnosed?

Oh yeah.

Are they medicated for something they shouldn't?

Oh Yeah.

Its a huge problem.

But, don't confuse mis-diagnoses with a disease or condition not existing.

So - ADD exists...but too many kids are diagnosed with it, and wrongly medicated....but it isn't a made up condition, it has simply been given a name....

The name wasn't used before, and now its over used....and that's the real issue.

(Besides shooting people before they blow up a plane, regardless of why)

It most certainly WAS invented. It was never even a problem until we started sending every kid to school.

Did it ever occur to you that what you call a disorder actually relates to adaptation that might give that person advantages outside of a classroom?

Please don't write another long post based on your assumptions. The simple fact is that you agree with the shrinks and I don't. As a scientist, it is impossible for me to accept their oversimplified societal model. So we can just agree to disagree on this point.

Is that you kettle??

Holy Shit! I didn't know Tom Cruise ownes/drives an Xterra! My god! Can I get your autograph Mr. Cruise?

Fucking Scientologists... Go back to your planet from which you came, in your Boeing 707 airliner, and let your "gods" or whatever they are, kill you once and for all...

Since you're having so much trouble reading (not the first time), I'll continue the conversation without regard to your silly lil post.

BTW, how tall are you? You sound awfully short over the internet.

.........

Some kids have trouble with school. That doesn't make them abnormal. One of the richest guys I know dropped out after eigth grade. One of the poorest I know has a master's degree.

The trick is to raise our children instead of using drugs and excuses.

"...the blue ones are for the shakes....the green ones for the anger....the orange ones for eternal happiness" ..... quote from a friend of mine who just got out of the nut house after being diagnosed with manic depressive disorder

WOO HOO, keep it coming boys :rolleyes:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask, really, what "exact sciences" are there? (No, I'm not Tom Cruise, I'm serious...) I suppose things like physics and mathematics are considered "exact sciences," but these sciences are still built on ideas and theories developed by normal people over hundreds of years, and they continue to evolve. Even today, people are challenging the fundamental rules of physics - String Theory , for example, which probably sounds crazy to a lot of people but may become "fact" in a few decades. Who knows.

Science is constantly evolving, some areas faster than others. We often use the scientific knowledge we have *now* to explain things we don't understand, and when new ideas (like String Theory, or ADD) crop up, the collective scientific community can either receive these new ideas with interest, or tell the guy he's crazy.

I think you're right on the money, Jeff, when you
state that the medical profession is shoehorning people into a societal model. Things like ADD are relatively new to medical science, and it's entirely possible that doctors aren't recognizing the symptoms correctly, or they're just writing a prescription and moving on to the next patient.

That's why it's important not to shun the development and research of these fields. What we call "ADD" now may be totally different in 200 years. Could be that we have 15 different terms for ADD-like symptoms by the end of the century, and drugs to treat the specific "conditions."

There are plenty of "conditions" that people cannot regularly solve on their own. I suppose you consider alcoholism just a "condition" that people should solve by themselves?

Depending on the research, 30 years can be a LONG time in terms of medicine. Think of it this way: we didn't know about AIDS 30 years ago either. AIDS existed (not among humans, but it did exist), we just didn't have a name for it. When people started dropping dead from simple viral infections, we knew there was something wrong. Imagine if the scientific community had ignored the problem, or just told people they were "pussies," or "deal with it yourself." Instead, most industrialized nations spend billions of dollars a year trying to find ways to treat AIDS, and as such, over the last 30 years they've come up with some pretty impressive treatments.

Maybe if the medical/scientific community had the goverment funding ADD research, we'd know more about it. As it is, we have to rely on the knowledge we have now, but the last thing I want to do is to discourage new research into this field.

Just my 2 cents. I'm a Christian and I have been diagnosed with Panic Disorder. It pretty much falls under the same crap as depression. You can take meds like Paxil, Welbutrin, Effexor, etc. I tried that for a couple years and then got off of it thinking I was cured (damn, that shit's hard to get off of). Anyway, I've had a few attacks since then, so I guess it's not going away. I was given some meds that will help me right away after I take them if I have an attack. It's amazing... I haven't had an attack since just knowing I have them. Once you know the problem and understand it, you can pretty much beat anything without meds. Of course that takes time an effort that some people aren't willing to do or can't do. On the other hand (this is mainly for off), God gave us doctors too so you can't just dismiss meds as all things evil. I do believe the current meds out right now are a "temporary" fix. They do not "cure" anyone. That's great if you can't take the time to properly fix your situation, like therapy or by other means. All the non-believers will hate this, but I know some who have beaten depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, etc. with prayer and receiving supernatural healing.

BTW, if you're wondering, I blame my mom (God love her) for my disorder. She had an obsession with the biggest disasters, deaths and everything else related to that... scared the living crap out of me while growing up. I had no chance. lol

Before we're completely off topic here (TOO LATE!)... when I hear people using comments like 'deserved to be shot', or 'justifiable shooting' or even 'airmarshall had no choice' I think people have overlooked or worse, come to accept getting killed/killing as an 'eventuality'. I think that the airmarshalls were far to indiscriminant in the use of their weapons, especially in such a close, confined, and fragile space. We have alternative technology (to guns) and need to employ this. I do not condone the use of deadly force in this situation as there is far too great an opportunity for error. Doesn't anyone else think that a man's life is sufficient evidence of this? Personally, it is not okay with me that ANYONE shot at, near, next to, or beside me, let alone INTO me! IF you start saying/thinking 'oh, well it's okay to shoot people in that case'... then have you thought... YOU are part of those 'people' that it might be okay to shoot? I suggest that there were PLENTY of alternatives to shooting this guy. Look, if this had occured in, oh... Ireland, England, Scotland, India, Fiji, Samoa, New Zealand, Japan, Greece, Panama, Norway, Indonesia, Monaco (you get the idea) where police do NOT carry guns, they would have had to do something else... and he'd still be alive!
Fact: In the world, only 2 countries allow use of deadly force in cases of self defense: USA and Israel.
My point? There are alternatives; other nations have demonstrated this... and for any of us to accept otherwise puts us and our friends and families in jeopardy MORE than allowing some guy to run down the aisle screaming 'bomb. You may smugly think you've added one more notch to your layer of security, but did you notice yet another loss of life and liberty (literally!)in this era of 'patriot act' panic?
Remember: "The trade-off between freedom and security, so often proposed so seductively, very often leads to the loss of both."

WOW, great word.

5 trucks for you.

We are "shoehorning" people onto an oversimplified model!

FWIW, the AIDS comparison is not valid. The HIV virus exists which causes AIDS.

Your kidding right? Do you even have a clue how the other technology works? Or you just basing it off of the tv?

In the instance where you don't know what he is reaching for and has indicated he has a bomb the only option to completely stop the threat is to shoot. Nothing else on my bat belt of toys would have stopped the guy from clicking a bomb device.

I realize he didn't have one but we don't have the x ray sunglasses yet. They are on backorder.

I don't think he's kidding judging by where he lives. I love warped liberal thinking. Their hearts are in the right place, but they lack the education to come to a reasonable solution. That's why California is so fucked up while no one messes with Texas.

Not that 'facts' have any bearing on you geniuses... but, in light of events subsequent to 9/11 the Pentagon and DHS in their republican wisdom (cough) actually initiated a study on the 'Best Techniques to Prevent Suicide Bombing'. The consultants included Int'l Security Defense Systems (from DALLAS, oooh) and members of the Israeli Defense Forces (who ya might think have SOME experience with this, huh?) and THEY concluded that the WORST option was to shoot the subject because of variety of trigger mechanisms. the WORST solution! ok? The BEST option was subdueing the subject because #1: blast dynamics and collateral damage, but it also went under even THEIR consideration, that if you subdue a 'potential suspect' and are wrong, the WORST is you end up appologizing or to quote them: "And if you get the wrong person, as the London police did, you don't have a corpse on your hands." uh, sound familiar?!
Amazing what an edumacation gets ya.

I'm just saying that 30 years ago there were diseases/viruses/conditions etc that we didn't know about that are today widely accepted, and it stands to reason that if more research/funding went into ADD (like with HIV and AIDS) that we'd know more about it....and possibly it would be widely accepted.

So, you believe EVERYTHING you read and state it as the "facts"? Why am I not surprised by this? Did you happen to stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night too?

BTW, during 911, one of the terrorists said he had a bomb strapped to his chest while the others used knives to slit the pilots throats. It's too bad no one was able to "subdue" the bomber so they could "subdue" the other terrorists with... oh that's right... they used everything on the first guy. Good luck with that one. And it's also a shame that when they subdued him, he released his fingers from the "trigger device" and it blew everyone up just like it would if he was shot.

You just a fucking moron plain and simple you have no clue and I am sorry for you. Happy day.

While what you say has merit, it doesn't hold water. What would you have done in that situation, armed with the same exact equipment that the airmarshal had? This BS tactic of playing the "what if" game is great on a message board, but the facts stand against your reason, not with it.

A distressed person was shouting he had a bomb on a plane in a post 9/11 America. The air marshall had his physical body, probably some cuffs, maybe pepper spray, and a gun. You would have the same equipment in the same situation. Which would you use? All but the gun, you have to get close, maybe too close, and to late? Pepper spray, doesn't effect half the people the way that you may think... so what should he have done? Try to talk him "down"? The tragedy is evident either way, but one man dead over a plane full, in this situation, with the equipment and judgement afforded the air marshall at the time......

Just to add, the london incident was much more callous. the guy was avoiding arrest, but he wasn't yelling he had a bomb, he wasn't on a plane.... etc... apples and oranges....

Dammnit!

Are we back on topic?

I was enjoying the other argument!

.....

OK, I'll bite.

I think that shooting a bomber is a good solution, depending on circumstances. ESPECIALLY if he is standing somewhere where minimal collateral damage is likely.

Why would they subdue him? That will just get the air marshalls killed when he detonates it.

Yeah - all of that subdue stuff assumed the plane was in flight, or at least that the bomb was in the plane, etc.

What? I thought this was over with. Okay... here's the 411:
Again, post 9/11, the Int'l Assn of Police Chiefs had a good idea. Based on the question, 'faced with a bomber... now what?' they thought to base police procedure on the physics associated with a suicide bomber type bomb. Smart so far. Well, professors at Yale & the US Naval Postgrad school undertook experiments and to quote them, "the conclusions were quite unexpected". Here,you read:

"It turns out that very few people are killed by the concussive force of a suicide explosion; the deadly weapon is in fact the shrapnel . The explosions, though, are usually not powerful enough to send these projectiles all the way through a human body, which means that if your view of a suicide bomber is entirely obscured by other people at the moment of detonation, you are much more likely to escape serious injury. Because of the geometry of crowds a bomb set off in a heavily populated room will actually yield fewer casualties than one set off in a more sparsely populated area; the unlucky few nearest to the bomb will absorb all of its force."
further (sorry, more reading):
"calculations demonstrate that causeing people near the bomber to scatter or hit the deck would make things worse - as a packed crowd ran away from a bomber or dropped to the ground, the circle of potential victims around him would get wider and thus more populous, and more lives could be lost."
So, according to both the Pentagon findings (shooting a bomber is more likely to cause a detonation than not); and the Police Chief Assn findings (don't tell people to hit the deck) the air marshall's actions were 100% wrong.
But don't feel bad, because DESPITE all the studies proving to the opposite, you know what the 'powers that be' decided? Get this:
"The International Association of Chiefs of Police issued guidelines this year suggesting that police officers who find a bomber in a crowd should fire shots into the air".
I feel safer! how about you?

Chew on this for awhile...

Do you really have a clue or you just guessing here?

Because nothing you say is accurate. The air marshall acted correctly. You seem to be the only one who disagrees. We all agree it was tragic but he acted on the information given to him at the time.

Your armchair quarterbacking sucks. Stick to your day job.

Yeah - sounds like the marshall should have made the passengers get out of the plane, and surround the bomber, so that their bodies would absorb the damage, saving the other people still in the plane, etc....then, standing in an, um, airport, he fires his weapon into the, um, air, which would doubtless cure the bomber of his chemical imbalance, and lead him to disarm immediately.

Nothing scares a suicide bomber like shots fired into the air, making him think he's going to be shot next...and as he's obviously going to be standing there threatening to blow himself up, he obviously doesn't want to die, and will immediately surrender to the authorities.

etc.