Are you asking if Hitler wasn't a bloodthirsty murderer or didn't invade other countries would he be considered a great leader?

I have no idea. You're getting into speculation and "what ifs" of historical figures. If he wasn't the hateful murderer and ambitious conquerer of his neighbors he wouldn't be the Hitler we already know from history.

Mao killed more people than Hitler did, yet there are people who think he was a great leader. As a matter of fact, Mao is responsible for more death than any person in human history. I find it very strange that he is not demonized as he should be.

As always.....you are correct Sir,

good post Patrick, very true. F'd up and sad, but true..

Actually I think it is complete bullshit. I have seen that argument countless times. The person putting it forward never actually has a solution of any type of course.

Radical Islam was subdued by the Crusades, why is today any different? Hell back then, the Muslims were far more advanced than the West, and they still lost.

You have to understand that their goal is world domination. Zawahiri's from Spain to Iraq reference should solidify that for anyone that doesn't get it.

I disagree. What kind of an attitude is that?

At least you acknowledge that radical, militant Islam is the enemy. Many do not.

The most dangerous form of Islam is Wahhibi Islam. That can be stopped. It's just going to take realism and courage on the part of people in the West. A courage and realism that I don't see.

Instead I see too much apologizing for Islam coming from those in the West. There is too much of a willingness to accomodate the radical aspects of Islam in the West.

Fighting radical Islam doesn't always have to be fought with guns and bombs. It can be done on an ideological level. On that front, the West so far is losing. It doesn't even seem willing to fight that fight.

I agree. A fucking cop-out. I'll say it again, you cannot shut your eyes, hum a happy tune, and pretend this will go away.
Because next time, SoCal, it might be LA that the whackos decide to attack. Not doing anything will only embolden them.
I'd rather try to do something than just throw my hands up and say it's hopeless.
Your examples of Asian and African Islam are misleading--as we are talking about different versions of Islam, much more recent adherents to the faith, different contexts, and different socio-political situations both foreign and domestic than the Mid East groups--but I don't have time right now to respond with the clarity that I want to.

Let's just do something. Anything. It's expensive as hell and it's not working but let's just do it so we can say we're doing something. I put a band aid on a severed jugular. Blood is spurting everywhere because the victim is hemorrhaging but FUCK YEAH! I did SOMETHING !

What the fuck does it matter that there are different aspects and beliefs with Islamic fundimentalism? Don't the Shiits, the Sunis and the Sikhs and fuck knows who else hate all the Jews and Christianity? The only thing we have going for us now in that regard is that we are lucky enough that they are as splintered as they are.

Uhm, there are Asian , specifically Indonesian cells of al queda that have blown up clubs, hotels and resturants there. We have seen Islamic moticated African genocide. "War" and "terrorism" can be shown on many levels.

You stop one you still face the other.

Frontier, "the Crusades" stopped who exactly? Which Crusade are you talking about specifically? The first, second , third or fourth?

What's different? Oh, about a billion people or so. That and bow and arrows Vs. guns and bombs. And those guys with bow and arrows killing women and children and everyone else they could exterminate. Then there's the power of the papacy and the edicts presented by the vatican army and their ability to call to arms. The "world" in 1200 was a hell of a lot smaller than it is today.

But I digress.

Quite simply you had the Islamic empire that had borders and soldiers and guns. Again, you could put a finger on who they were. They weren't lurking in the shadows. That comparison is actually laughable actually.

I have yet to see anyone on this thread offer any solution short of kill 'em all and let god sort them out. I contend that it isn't our problem or gods.

The solution? Close up shop. Batton up the hatches and armor the walls. We have our friends and they have theirs. Severe restrictions on global trade, aid and tourism. You want to go to Egypt for vacation? Stay their because you can't come back. Iranian family? Pick a side. Go or stay. But once you are gone stay gone. We need to reduce the size of our world. We ahve the Us, Canada and Mexico if they want to be part of the team. And we keep European realtions and trade going along with China and the rest of Asia if they want to play ball. If not we take our ball and lock it up.

The rest of the world we bid "fuck off." They want to blow themselves up? Fine, have at it. Israelis want to immigrate to Wyoming, great we'll make a place for you . The weather is a lot nicer anyways. The rest of the shit, we isolate and ignore. Cut them off. No aid, no trade no oil purchases, nothing. We have enough oil with South America and Canada to make it work.

If it doesn't than we need to make a serious effort at conservation and alternative fuels. We are slaves to their oil because american corporations have convinced us that we need to be. We don't. How weathy and powerfull would the Saudis, the Iraquis and the Iranians be if they had no customers? Fuck'em.

Isolationism. This isn't 1956 and we should get out of the nation building business. It's not working and our CIA has done a shitty job of infiltrating these countrys and altering history. It's not going to happen with leaflets and assinations anymore. We protect ourselves the best we can. A big moat between here and Mexico and racial profile the shit out of every plane that lands from anywhere else but Boise.

We lock the doors, figure out how to answer our own customer service phone banks and eat our own oranges and rice and call it a day. Then we go to the U.N. , shake everyone's hand, wish them luck, bid them a good day and show them the door. It's been a lot of fun but from here on out you are on your own.

We'll be just fine thank you.

"We think a hundred years ago you were living out here in tents in the desert chopping each others heads off, and that's exactly where you're gonna be in another hundred."

Exactly, except to the opposite of what you are trying to argue. We live in a smaller world today, sir.

Nice pipe dream. Hell, I'd love to pretend that the world outside of my state doesn't exist. La la la la. Going to my happy place.

A few inaccuracies:

Sikhs are a peaceful religion separate from Islam entirely. Most live in India.

I never said Asian/African Islamic terrorists didn't exist. Hardly. They do, but they often don't have the same goals as the Mid East groups. Al Qaeda is a major exception. And, yes, there are significant differences in Islamic fundamenatlist groups from continent to continent that would require me to write a freaking three-page post to describe.

Socal....

I have to say your post was filled with nothing but a lot of this....



I've mentioned in this thread ways we can fight Islamic terrorism.

I don't see it happening until the terrorists start killing more Americans by the thousands.

We are too willing to accomodate the terrorist idealogy. Our society actually apologizes for it. We are actually enabling this problem and strengthening them.

I think it's sad that you don't see it.

I know what you said. You said ways you can fight it. That's easy. I'm talking about stopping it.

That's the difference. You can fight it forever. Congradulations. Do you honestly ever think it can be STOPPED?

Exactly, except to the opposite of what you are trying to argue. We live in a [b]smaller world today, sir.

Nice pipe dream. Hell, I'd love to pretend that the world outside of my state doesn't exist. La la la la. Going to my happy place.

A few inaccuracies:

Sikhs are a peaceful religion separate from Islam entirely. Most live in India.

I never said Asian/African Islamic terrorists didn't exist. Hardly. They do, but they often don't have the same goals as the Mid East groups. Al Qaeda is a major exception. And, yes, there are significant differences in Islamic fundamenatlist groups from continent to continent that would require me to write a freaking three-page post to describe.[/b][/QUOTE]

_________________________________________________

Every group has extremists. Even the Sikhs want their own little slice of heaven.
A little light reading on Sikh terrorism:
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror_91/asia.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/sikh.htm

I never said to burry our collective heads in the samd and pretend that evil doesn't exist. Closing up shop and boarding the doors is hardly "my happy place." It's ugly and sad but if protecting our way of life really is the goal, than what else would be more effective? I'm merely saying that going over to wherever the bad guys are hiding and trying to combat them millitarily isn't working. MadMad thinks I'm crazy for saying that we should pack up concentrate on defending our own homeland while going door to door all over the world shooting the bad guy makes perfect sense. Which plan really has a chance of success?

A smaller world? Yeah, I know everyone says that because you can fly it or call it and get across it quicker it's a smaller planet. But has it has never ben so populated and diverse. Have you ever seen a map of the world from about 1200AD? It was a much smaller place with much more ethnic and cultural segregation. You have never had so many different and diverse cultures living on top of each other and people are doing a damn good job of killing more of each other with less effort than it took in 1200.

MadMan, Frontier et.al. -

Quick show of hands: A) Who among you really has a solution to STOP Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, al qaeda and every other militant Islamic extremist organization? And B) Who honestly thinks that if we stay on course that some day they will be eliminated as threats to the safety of those that they now oppose?

While I agree about not putting up with fundamentalist bullshit of any kind (it seems to me all religion is evil by nature) I think the rest of your posts are full of shit. FlyfishingX defends you, and you may very well be an intelligent person, but I have not seen it in this thread. You have not offered any way out except to kill everyone that seems to be a commie...er..islami.

The jews and romans tried to whipe out christianity back when it started. Nah, didn't happen. Not even america can endure a war of such proportions as you propose. Heck, even Israel looked this week at the task that lay ahead and blinked. They don't want to get back into the business of occupation of lebanon.
The only major groups to have been somewhat successful at wiping out whole nations;
- The spanish in south americas - the europeans in North America (this was more by accident through disease and greed of the natives) And I know you want to repeat that.

You say everyone that does not agree with your attack statements has no solution. Bullshit. I offered a solution.. I said defend, do not attack. Yes, some will die in the coming years - but if we follow your methods many many more will die much quicker.
Eventually our defense technologies will become better than our ability to kill. Then the disease will die down when it has no where else to go.

We are faced with a choice on earth... go into a bloodbath orgy of killing... or minimize the killing...sure innocents will die from our side, but the other side will not win that war. We must be strong and continue to do what is right and moral, no matter the other sides reaction. I am not saying let the other side kill at will, any terrorists must be hunted and brought to justice, but leave the fence sitters where they are... don't push them off. When you push them half will fall on your side and the other half will fall on the other.

WOW! I stayed out of this as long as possible, but this is just...well, I don't know what the hell this is. I guess since Hitler believed in God (and Jesus, by the way), but thought and PREACHED (read:believed) that he was better than God or Jesus; that his beliefs were right and that made them so? Good Lord, dude. You guys on the left coast are more gone than I thought!

"What the fuck does it matter?" Are you kidding me? What the fuck does it matter? Man, you are completely fucking gone. What do you think the roots were to WWII? Read a book, get out of the fucking movie house and visit a fucking library. Better yet, rent a documentary about the thing that pulled the US into the Second World War (preferably not directed by Oliver Stone). Was it based soley on what Japan did with it's attack on Pearl Harbor? (You may think so - but, to much of your dismay, Ben Afflect was not even born at the time).

Look, religion has played a HUGE part in all world conflicts. You might try and pick up the Bible, for a change (this does not make you religious - you can still spout off about the boss at Starbuck's with your "really cool" co-workers). I'm not overly religious. But if you have a base understanding of what certain people believe (not what you hear on "Inside Edition") in other areas of the world, and how it has been throughout the beginning of time, maybe you would see how tenuous this situation really is, and how completely close we are to full out war (yes, WORLD WAR).

Just for shits and giggles, what do you and your far left friends think about when they reflect on 9/11? We had it coming? I bet so.

Doesn't matter - whatever happens; if it is the worst thing possible - you'll want to take cover in one of my friend's bomb shelters (so to speak). Too bad socialists won't be admitted. Perhaps you could hide in a spider hole, seems you sympathize with the terrorists enough to earn a spot.

See? I try and stay out of shit like this, and then we let uninformed people post here. Shit.

Spanky.

I disagree with your assertions. First of all, how are we going to concentrate on protecting our homeland? We have an administration that is trying to do exactly that, yet they are constantly attacked for it every single day. People yelled and screamed after 9-11 that the government should have known about the plot, yet now when the government tries to uncover terrorist plots beforehand they are constantly and consistently attacked for doing just that. Mostly by people on the left for their own political purposes.

In the last election we even had the Democratic candidate basically flat out say that fighting terrorism is a law enforcement issue. That is complete insanity. Police agencies can't fight terrorism. Most are not equipped with the resources and intelligence units required to uncover terrorist plots. Especially those of an international scope. Police agencies can respond to the scene after the buildings have been blown up and initiate investigations from that point, but anyone who thinks fighting terrorism is solely a local law enforcement matter is bordering on insane. If that is how some people want to fight terrorism on our own soil, there is going to be many more attacks and many dead Americans.

Forcibly confronting terrorist organizations with military force is a necessity. Just look at Israel's problem with Hezbollah. They are a well-armed and well-trained terrorist organization. There is absolutely no way to solve the Hezbollah problem without military force.

Quote:

A smaller world? Yeah, I know everyone says that because you can fly it or call it and get across it quicker it's a smaller planet. But has it has never ben so populated and diverse. Have you ever seen a map of the world from about 1200AD? It was a much smaller place with much more ethnic and cultural segregation. You have never had so many different and diverse cultures living on top of each other and people are doing a damn good job of killing more of each other with less effort than it took in 1200.

There was plenty of killing going on in 1200 AD. In that period of time Muslim armies had already marched into Europe and were engaging in a bloody conquest of India. Islam was spread by the sword, not by peaceful means. Also during that time the beginnings of the Ottoman Empire were beginning to take shape. In later years they too would initiate bloody expansion, even into Europe.

Quote:

Quick show of hands: A) Who among you really has a solution to STOP Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, al qaeda and every other militant Islamic extremist organization? And B) Who honestly thinks that if we stay on course that some day they will be eliminated as threats to the safety of those that they now oppose?

Both military means and the use of intelligence services are needed to combat Islamic terrorism.

The most important aspect of combating Islamic terrorism is societal change. The insanity of political correctness and suicidal notions of multiculturalism have to be eliminated from the national mindset.

Politicians in the West have to stop calling it the "war on terror". Terror is the tactic. Cowardice and political correctness gives cover to the enemy. The enemy is Militant Islam, Radical Islam, or Islamic fundamentalism. Pick a name, but the enemy needs to be named and named often by our leaders.

Radical Islam is openly preached on almost every college campus across this country and every Western nation. Political correctness and the "multicultural" attitudes allow this to occur and even coddle and encourage this activity. We allow radical Islam right under our noses, yet we have college professors being fired for perceived insults to Islam as has recently happened in DePaul because the teacher challenged the hatred espoused by Muslim student groups.

You ask what can be done to combat Islamic terrorism when we live in a modern society that is committing it's own slow version of cultural and societal suicide.

You also ask what can be done when we have pro-jihadi Islamist Muslim organizations like CAIR and MPAC practically dictating government policy to combat Islamic terrorism.

When truth becomes more important than protecting sensitivities, the first battle in the war on Islamic terrorism will be won. You however have to ask yourself, are you doing your part along those lines?

While I was in the library I took a reading comprehension course. You should try it too. You took one little, itty bitty, tiny part of what I said and you misinterpreted it and got it wrong. Good job.

Now follow along: It doesn't matter which brand of Islamic fundimentalism it is, they all hate Israel and they all seem to hate our way of life. An Islamic EXTREMIST is an Islamic EXTREMIST. Does it really matter if it's Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, al qaeda or the terrorist organization to be named later that wants to see us destroyed? It doesn't. Does anyone really care if it's the sunni or shiite suicide bomber who is strapping the bomb to their chest? I don't give a fuck about their dogmatic idosyncries. You call me the liberal and I'm the one who can give two shits about their religious sensibilities. What the hell does it matter ? They all do share one commmon goal though and that's what scares me.

And a little more help with your comprehension: I don't drink coffee. I have never sat down in a Starbucks. I don't have a boss and I only have one co-worker. I am not a Democrat. (search under my member number for the word "immigration") My wife is my only liberal friend and she will make more of a contribution to this planet in a year than you will in your lifetime. I have read the bible. I have also read The Iliad. So what?

You should really stick to masterbating to softcore porn, making useless quips in places where they won't be noticed and staying at the kids table where you belong so you can be seen and not heard.

Anything else , Simpleton?

That is actually spelled "Masturbating"

You spell one difficult english word correctly, and it's that?

Nope. Not surprised.

Or, idiosyncracies, even.

Roll your eyes and correct spelling, Simpleton. That's all you have.

Amateur.

Yes, there are certainly militants in every religion. The problem with you citing Sikhs among the Islamic groups is that it has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. Sikh "terrorist" groups are more akin to what was going on in Chechnya than what is happening in the Mid East and with global terrorism.

Quote:

I never said to burry our collective heads in the samd and pretend that evil doesn't exist. Closing up shop and boarding the doors is hardly "my happy place." It's ugly and sad but if protecting our way of life really is the goal, than what else would be more effective? I'm merely saying that going over to wherever the bad guys are hiding and trying to combat them millitarily isn't working. MadMad thinks I'm crazy for saying that we should pack up concentrate on defending our own homeland while going door to door all over the world shooting the bad guy makes perfect sense. Which plan really has a chance of success?

In an ideal world, I agree with you SoCal. Heck, I would like to extend that kind of isolationism to our food supply too (which I actually consider a national security issue). And while we're at it, why not stop importing cheap plastic crap from China? Again, I agree with you in principle, but I honestly do not know if it is any more tenable a solution than the alternative of chasing terrorists all over the world. One thing I am sure of, however, is that we do not have an accurate picture of how effective military force can be against this enemy because of the insufficient manpower and material that we are devoting to the task--not to mention the subversive role that all the bleeding hearts and moral relativists play in keeping one hand tied behind the military's back. That is another discussion for another day, however.

Quote:

A smaller world? Yeah, I know everyone says that because you can fly it or call it and get across it quicker it's a smaller planet. But has it has never ben so populated and diverse. Have you ever seen a map of the world from about 1200AD? It was a much smaller place with much more ethnic and cultural segregation. You have never had so many different and diverse cultures living on top of each other and people are doing a damn good job of killing more of each other with less effort than it took in 1200.

We would not even be having this discussion if the world was not a smaller place. We would have already adopted your isolationist plan.

Or even idiosyncraSies.

Booya.