3...2...1..

ALR

Not I.

So...uh....will 33" tires fit on my....

Oh, never mind.

can we ban brandon yet?

this thread proves he' just a troll.

he came in with an absurd point of view that no sane person could have and then onc ehe gets everyone riled up he take soff and lets them fight amongst themselves....

classic troll.

GO ISREAL!!!

lol

Why is it hard core leftists always chafe when they are called hardcore leftists? Shouldnt they be proud of what they are, or does something about what they believe embarrass them?

One thing this war is doing already is exposing the UN bias against Israel. You cant even deny it exists any more.

Where are the resolutions condemning Hezbollah?

The trouble is, Madman, you often use the two terms interchangeably. Also, we don't have the "NY Madman secret decoder ring" that comes in boxes of Captain Crunch to decipher exactly what you mean by your generalizations at times. More to the point, throwing out monikers like that is more an act of rhetoric or hyperbole than a constructive exercise that helps us understand anything about anyone. Am I guilty of this at times? Sure. But you use words like "liberal" or "leftist" as epithets in half your posts. You act as though its like condemning somebody as a child molestor or murderer. I have a little higher opinion of those who are on the lefthand side of the spectrum, especially if they actually have thought out their opinions and views--like a number of people here.

I have no desire to continue a back-and-forth with you over personal BS. The funny thing is that we're in agreement over the actual topic here. I apologize for berating you about your attack on PDX. PDX is obviously a big boy who can take care of himself. The one thing I will say, is that I am not trying to impress anyone here, as you suggest. I, like most people here, come here for laughs, interesting conversation, and sometimes a good flaming if Miner Boy shows up.

I read the first few pages. I couldn't read anymore... Too much BS flying around.

So here's my $.01 worth.

Typically/ordinarily, I'd side with Isreal when it comes to their response towards terrorists. And to be honest, I like the gung-ho attitude w/ going after the piece of shits.

But in this particular instance, I feel that Israel is going too far with this, over 2 soldiers. Don't get me wrong; I am all for the "noone gets left behind" attitude, and for the "no negotiations" attitude with dealing with Hezbollah, and other organizations like this.

What I don't understand, however, is how attacking Lebanon, and knocking them back two decades of advancement, is helping Isreal's case. They've done an excellent job over the past decade with precision strikes against the guilty party; taking a heli and blasting the shiite out of whatever carload of people they needed to hit. But for some reason, they've taken a broad "kill 'em all" approach this time, and I don't think it serves their purpose.

In the overall grand scheme of things, as of right now, there are only 2 Israeli soldiers kidnapped and lost. Blowing up a neighboring country isn't going to get those 2 soldiers back. Going after the Hezbollah directly will. But you've got to hit the "right" Hezbollah. It doesn't seem prudent to piss off the neighbors for *only* 2 soldiers.

This feeling I've got directly conflicts my feelings on Iraq, however, and a lot of things in general. But I'm afraid that Israel is dragging the middle east into the precurser for WWIII. And for something that is not a large/harsh enough offense to warrant it.

I don't see this 'kill 'em all' attitude at all. They are trying to wipe out Hezbollah once and for all. They have dropped leaflets warning civilians to get out of certain areas, and 700 missiles have been launched from Lebanon. They asked Lebanon to deploy it's military to deal with Hezbollah and they refused.

This isn't about two soldiers. It is about terrorist kidnappings. If they allow it to work once, it will get worse and worse. Hezbollah also chose to attack deep into Israel. That was a mistake.

Israel has been here before. They were convinced by the Clinton administration to leave the occupied buffer strip in Lebanon. They occupied the country to protect themselves from Hezbollah/Iranian Guard missiles for 20 years. As usual the terrorists saw this as a sign of weakness, and reacted.

This was just a matter of time in the making. Israel is not going to sit by the sideline, and wait for their enemies to get strong enough to take them out.

While I generally try to stay out of online discussions on matters like this, I can, for the record, usually be observed as rather conservative in my leanings and beliefs.

I concur with porsche's sentiments. I would think that Israel would be more precisely striking those that are causing the problems. I understand that some of what they are doing is intended to negate Hezbollah's capability to operate, but there does seem to be a substantial amount of collateral damage....or at least damage that not only disrupts Hezbollah's activities, but also affects Lebanon's (and Gaza's) citizenry....citizenry, who, in spite of the image created by the radicals, in large part really only wants the opportunity to exist.

Israel has what is feels is justification in their actions.....and in great part I feel they are justified as well. I would just like to see a more surgical application of the actions.....a precision, as porsche alluded to....Israel is quite capable of.

No easy answers, of course. But my thoughts are with all the innocents that are caught in the crossfire.

You are talking about the innocents that elected Hamas and refuse to kick the terrorists out of their country right?

No....I am talking about anyone who is caught in the middle....children, those who have tried to live their lives as best they can. Were the Hamas and Hezbollah elements of the the respective countries' governments installed by unanimous votes? No?......So not everyone in the countries in question supported those elements. It is not as black and white as people want it to be.

Just as labelling all Americans as a war-mongering infidels is not accurate, labelling all those that reside in Gaza and Lebanon as supporters of terrorists activities is not accurate. Those factions do exist, and do maintain effective hold over the region, but not all citizens share those beliefs.

Surely you can acknowledge that those people exist.....

Helping Israel's case? To whom? Israel gets the shaft in world opinion 90% of the time. Why would they give a rat's ass about world opinion when they already know its most likely to be negative, or at best ambivilent, regardless of the facts at hand? As many others have said already, it's about survival.

You know, to look at this isolated incident in isolation is ridiculous. Israel isn't merely reacting to the capture of two soldiers, it's reacting to centuries of hate directed at them. You may think that they're flying off the handle, but try to imagine being surrounded by people who would love nothing more than wipe your seed from the earth. I think you might react strongly when provoked. Key word: provoked.

I'm not talking about the world's sentiments towards Israel, when I mention "not helping their case". I'm talking about their wanting peace in the region.

IMO, it's too late for Israel to take such a harsh stance, as just a few years ago they DID pay a ransom for the release of a hostage. A wealthy businessman from Israel was kidnapped, and Israel relased dozens of prisoners for his exchange. They screwed up, then, by setting the precedence that they'd pay for exchanges. To take their hardlined approach, now, does not help their cause.

I would have preferred they put together a team of black ops and rescue their soldiers, instead of immediately calling on air strikes.

Besides. I still can't figure out how you can piss off an IceChicken so much he starts dropping bombs on your head. I mean, really....

It's actually three soldiers.

On the surface what you say may be logical if you were only looking at the surface.... and in one direction. But in reality this is about a lot more than just three soldiers. Lebanon is also more than just your average neighboring country.

A lot has happened in Lebanon. Especially over the past year and a half. Are you familiar with what has taken place there over the past 18 months or more?

Israel is fighting Hezbollah in Lebanon. They are not targeting Lebanese troops, but they need to cut off Hezbollah's access to Damascus. They need to block the ports to prevent arms and weapons shipments. They will destroy whatever assets Hezbollah is using. Such as the Beirut airport. If Israel wanted to outright attack the Lebanese people, they would have destroyed the power grid in that country first.

To make a long story short, Israel is fighting a proxy war with Iran right now. Those proxies being Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south. Syria as a partner.

Quote:

This feeling I've got directly conflicts my feelings on Iraq, however, and a lot of things in general. But I'm afraid that Israel is dragging the middle east into the precurser for WWIII. And for something that is not a large/harsh enough offense to warrant it.

You are looking in the wrong direction. Iran has been arming Hezbollah and Hamas for some time now building to a confrontation with Israel.

The timing is not unusal considering what the madman Iranian president said just last Saturday...



Ahmadinejad has been mobilizing his terrorist proxies. (He's the kind of guy you really want with nuclear weapons too).

It's about more than just the kidnapped soldiers. The attacks from Gaza in the south and then the soldiers being kidnapped were the provocation to deal with the terrorist forces that were building up.

The problem with Islamic terrorist groups is they set up their headquarters and keep their weapons caches in the middle of civilian populations.

That's their MO. They do it in Iraq. They do it in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank.

Jordan recently caught them shipping weapons through that country and immediately cancelled a meeting with one of the elected Hamas leaders.

I know this.....My remark is simply an observation of my regret for those people. An idealist reaction.....i am sure.....but a genuine concern for all people, regardless of religion, who are caught between forces trying to kill each other. What a waste of potential.

Maybe I'm just getting old.

Yup, and then the Western media comes out with sob stories about civilian casualties. Is it sad that innocent people die? Yes. It's just not always as straightforward as the media reports it to be though ....

Finally, a post that has a lot of truth backing it.

Are you done flying off the handle for no reason? You got all the personal insults out of your system?

There was a time when I threw around the leftist label a lot. But then again there was a time when there were many people on this board who were poster children for the MoveOn.org generation. I don't do it as much anymore. I do it to people who I know and have a history with on the board. People for whom the term is apt. Branden is a known commodity.

I haven't called you a leftist.

By the way, I didn't attack PDX. He attacked me. I've seen his login name before, but I don't recall anything about him, so I wouldn't initiate an attack. We worked out the problems with counseling.

Your apology is accepted.

You'll have to excuse me now because some new users have entered the thread and they seem like leftists.

I go back to my post on page 1.

Too bad it's not Syria. Take the battle their direction.

I can empathize a bit with Lebanon...I'm sure the bulk of the country's population isn't crazy about the Hezbola forces there, but they're tolerated to avoid civil war and a breakdown of basic infrastructure. On the other hand, they tolerate this crap and Israel is calling them out on it.

Still...Syria and Iran are the problem children in the region and they're the force behind these jabs at Israel.

Maybe the US and Israel should take the stance and not recognize Syria and Iran, and we should call for their obliteration.

Seems it would turn the tables a bit.

Madman, you know I like you. Yeah, it looks like we have some work to do with these people who hold doctorates in "truth."

Its pretty obvious Iran is the brains behind this whole operation.

I just wish we could somehow get a large number of troops stationed on either side of them in case we need to attack them one of these days.

Since war with Iran (the whole muslim world) seems inevitable (Ive been saying it will happen for ten years), I wish we had a leader who would foresee this and get troops into the region.

Off the top of my head, I cant remember what two countries are on Iran's eastern and western borders, but I am sure it will come to me eventually.