Here is the bit that defines the illegal procedure. It is pretty plain to me that they are talking about the PBA here.

"a headfirst presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of the breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus"

I am not a big fan of abortion. When I was younger I was actually pro-choice. As I approached my late 20's I realized abortion was wrong. Especially this "partial birth" abortion. It is absolutely sick and is without a doubt murder of an innocent life. It is infanticide.

Abortion is overly abused by too many lazy sluts. Madonna is a perfect example. She has had 11 documented abortions and possibly more. She even had one after the birth of her first child. This low class slut also tries to portray herself as a "spiritual" person by claiming to study Kabbalah.

The abortion issue is also a sham. Men have absolutely no rights. If the father wishes to keep the child and raise it himself he has absolutely no say in the matter. However in the reverse, if the father does not wish to have the child and the mother does than that man is forced to support the child for 18 years. This is in no way equitable. A father should have some rights or say in the issue of aborting his offspring.

The whole issue of abortion should not and should never have been a federal issue. This is without a doubt a matter for the individual states to decide. It's just one of many examples of a liberal federal judiciary ignoring the constitution.

EDIT: It is not just the Christian right who is against "partial birth" abortion. Everyone with any sense of morality and right and wrong is also against it.

Well that wasn't nice. Why does it have to go to the ALR if the issue is debated rationally and like adults?

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Back to the RVW bit. I did see a quote from some Republican saying that getting rid of abortion completely is not really an option. Our society would not allow it.

That would be President Bush that said that.

I hope you're not equating a D&X with the average abortion procedure. D&X procedures (i.e Pro-Life propaganda "Partial Birth Abortions") are normally performed in the rare instances of:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm

"1st Trimester: D&Xs are not performed during the first three months of pregnancy, because there are better ways to perform abortions. There is no need to follow a D&X procedure, because the fetus' head quite small at this stage of gestation and can be quite easily removed from the woman's uterus.

2nd Trimester: D&Xs are very rarely performed in the late second trimester at a time in the pregnancy before the fetus is viable. These, like most abortions, are performed for a variety of reasons, including:

She is not ready to have a baby for whatever reason and has delayed her decision to have an abortion into the second trimester. As mentioned above, 90% of abortions are done in the first trimester.

There are mental or physical health problems.

The fetus has been found to be dead, badly malformed, or suffering from a very serious genetic defect. This is often only detectable late in the second trimester

3rd Trimester: They are also very rarely performed in late pregnancy. The most common justifications at that time are:

The fetus is dead.

The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.

The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.

The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus."

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The whole issue of abortion should not and should never have been a federal issue. This is without a doubt a matter for the individual states to decide. It's just one of many examples of a liberal federal judiciary ignoring the constitution.

Then why do conservatives in the Federal government keep making this a government issue?

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EDIT: It is not just the Christian right who is against "partial birth" abortion. Everyone with any sense of morality and right and wrong is also against it.

Maybe if you knew something about the D&X procedure and why it's performed, and didn't take your cues from the Christian Coalition, you know what you were actually talking about here.

That's hard to avoid since it's a huge topic that Republicans and Democrats debate on all the time. Democrats are for it while Republicans are against it. You can still vote democrat or republican and still be against a few issues of your party. You just not as far left or right as your party would like you to be.

You are just posting pure pro-abortion propaganda. The stuff you posted is what was supposed to be the original intent of the so-called "partial birth" abortions. We all know the system is totally abused by women who just don't want the babies anymore.

There was a time when a woman could only get an abortion in the first trimester. Now they can get them any time right into the 9th month. The doctors that perform abortions are not moral people. They will claim anything to justify their collecting a payday in order to perform the abortion. That's the reality of the situation today.

Late term abortions are rarely performed due to health considerations regardless of how you try to spin it. They are performed because the women don't want the babies.

Because it is too late. Liberal radicals on the Supreme Court already made it a federal issue with Roe vs Wade. You've got to be kidding with that question right?

What is there to know. The situation is extremely abused by corrupt doctors. I've already stated these types of abortions are a sham and are rarely performed because of any type of health considerations.

Abortion doctors make their money by performing abortions. The more abortions they perform the more money they make. Is that so hard for you to figure out? These people are deviod of any morality and are the scum of the earth.

Some days, it seems like a good idea for women to have abortions well into the 160th trimester . . .

I'm not trying to spin anything here. I'm just getting my information from Google searches just like you are. What I think you're forgetting here is it takes two to tango. You can't put all the blame on the woman.

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Abortion doctors make their money by performing abortions. The more abortions they perform the more money they make. Is that so hard for you to figure out? These people are deviod of any morality and are the scum of the earth.

And the pro-life wacko's that bomb abortion clinics and shoot the Doctors and nurses are any better? How about this scenario, birth control is more accepted and praticed by all factions in the U.S. Wouldn't the need for abortions must then drop dramatically as well?

If you really think the people of this nation, conserative and liberal alike, will someday all of a sudden decide on a life of abstinence instead of giving in to the innate and uncontrollable urge to copulate, you then are truly living in fantasy land.

How many pro-life whacko's have bombed abortion clinics? How many have killed people? The number is actually very small. A tiny handful. That's more of your "metrosexual" pro-abortion propaganda. How many babies have perished due to abortions in the last 30 years. Over 40 million. An entire generation and a half almost wiped out. Most women who get abortions are white females.

I don't know why you bring contraception into the argument. The whole proliferation of abortion is due to the lack of contraception use. The whole abortion issue is wholely connected to responsiblity. In most cases irresponsility. Remember that word...RESPONSIBILITY. If people were more responsible than there would be less abortions. But then again the whole idea of personal responsiblity is anathema to the left wing establishment.

No one is asking anyone to abstain from sex. Again the issue of responsibility comes into play.

The urge to have to have sex is innate but it is not uncontrollable. This ridiculous train of thought would be a perfect defense for rape as you seem to portray the sexual urge.

With sexual conduct comes responsibility for your actions. Abortion should not be used as a method of birth control. That is what it has become in our country. It is that way because people like you do not understand responsibility for individaul actions.

If you feel the right of individuals to have sex is greater than the right to live of the life that the sexual act creates than you lack any understanding of individual responsiblity. It also indicates a clear amorality and a touch of evil.

I understand full well the concept of responsibilitiy. If I didn't, I wouldn't have made it this far in life. What an asinine remark to make. Are you saying you're a more responsible person then me? That's a laugh, not only have you no children or wife of your own (that you've indicated at least), the yarns you've spun over the past year pertaining to your so called life proves otherwise. You really need to get over yourself old man.

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If you feel the right of individuals to have sex is greater than the right to live of the life that the sexual act creates than you lack any understanding of individual responsiblity. It also indicates a clear amorality and a touch of evil.

That's not what I meant and you know it. I also consider myself a very moral person, when have I ever shown otherwise? But then again, this type of rhetoric is your typical response when you lack the ability to rebut in an intelligent way. All you want to do is get a rise out of me, keep trying. When you stop with false accusations and assumptions, I'll debate the issue with you further if you'd like.

You people on the left are something else. Whenever backed into a corner or shown how your arguments and theories hold no water you always start in with name calling or attempts at personal attacks.

I never made any remarks as to who is more of a responsible person. My remarks were meant to indicate who understands the principles of personal responsibility more. To those of you on the left personal responsibility is a foreign concept. It is something only "right wing" people are concerned about.

I think I have been cordial here. Am I an old man? Not yet. I'm only maybe two or three years older than you. Do you consider yourself an old man?. Why don't I have kids? Because I am responsible. I have never had a desire to be a parent and have always been responsible enough to take precautions. However if I were presented with the prospect I certainly would not run to an abortionist in order to make an inconvenience go away. I would do the right thing.

I don't know what "yarns" you are talking about but you are more than welcome to bring anything up and question it if you feel it necessary. You really need to get over the fact that you are an amoral man and lack the courage to see yourself and your convictions for what they truly are.

For a man who claims to love his own son so much you are more than happy to have the same little similar faces murdered and destroyed before even being allowed to breathe their first breath. How can you truly look at his face and know millions just like that are murdered and destroyed every year... all because of like minded people as yourself.

A strange sense of irony. I think I would make a better father than you.

First, you are wrong on almost every thing you stated here. Tell us all why you are so in favor of abortion. Yeah, this whole thing is concept dreamed up by the Right Wing Conspirators.

Second, find me the stats of the number of women actually saved by having an abortion from 1970 until now. In other words you pro-baby killers, show me the fact sheet on the number of women who were on the verge of death until they had an abortion, then sprang to life.

Third, you are for coathangers but against guns. Why? Do they both not get used in the murder of humans?

Fourth, why didn't you abort your baby?

This is my first post---and it is a very personal one.
My 20 year old sister just recently became pregnant. She works 40 hrs a week, minimum wage as a social worker w/out medical insurance benefits. And she lives with who I consider to be a dead beat boyfriend. She was on the depo-shot but got pregnant anyway because she was taking numerous medications, including antiobiotics. She did not realize & her doctors neglected to inform her that this could happen. So to answer your big question...NO she did not choose to have an abortion. She chose to keep the baby. She has gone on medicaid & other federal programs to help cover the cost of medical care & the living expenses that come with raising a child when you are barely an adult yourself. Before this she had decided that she didn't want to have kids. But told me that she could not have an abortion just because she made a mistake. The night she told me I cried for her & her lost young adulthood & freedom. I tried to persuade her to consider abortion & adoption, but she is stubborn and always knows what is best for herself. So I dropped it & decided to be happy for her & her coming addition.
Unfortunately a week ago she started bleeding & when she went to the ER they were unable to find a heart beat. She was sent home with a heavy heart & medication to make her uterous contract to expel the fetus and placenta. Instead she just lost a large amount of blood and later this week will need to have a D&X.

This post is not necessarily about abortion but the many, many, many different emotions a female & her partner go thru when this happens. Real life is not about democrats & republicans. It is about what choice you make. And that is one of the things that make us human...reason & thought. Those of you that think that the decision is black or white are wrong. When you have to make that decision or watch someone go thru it, the ideas of pro-choice and pro-life are not a factor. I have seen friends who were pro-life go thru a pregnancy scare & totally rethink their stance. I think that only then can you make a well informed decision as to what side of the fence you are on with this issue.

You just described yourself and most radical rightwingers to a "T".

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I never made any remarks as to who is more of a responsible person. My remarks were meant to indicate who understands the principles of personal responsibility more. To those of you on the left personal responsibility is a foreign concept. It is something only "right wing" people are concerned about.

Another one of your personal views that holds no water. Again, your comments towards me pertaining to not knowing the concept of responsibility was totally incongruous and without merit.

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I think I have been cordial here. Am I an old man? Not yet. I'm only maybe two or three years older than you. Do you consider yourself an old man?. Why don't I have kids? Because I am responsible. I have never had a desire to be a parent and have always been responsible enough to take precautions. However if I were presented with the prospect I certainly would not run to an abortionist in order to make an inconvenience go away. I would do the right thing.

Again, you have lost sight of the original debate here, and you continue to catagorize a common 1st term abortion to a D&X. What part of 0.5% of all the abortions performed in this country do you not understand? Focus Madman, focus.

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I don't know what "yarns" you are talking about but you are more than welcome to bring anything up and question it if you feel it necessary. You really need to get over the fact that you are an amoral man and lack the courage to see yourself and your convictions for what they truly are.

Um...let's see, pissing into gas tanks comes to mind. What you really need to do is get over the fact that you cannot debate an issue without turning it to an personal attack. Everything to you is a moral issue, conspiracy theory or a "Left vs Right" crusade. Perhaps if you thought more for yourself and less as a collective of the right wing, you might actually have something worth while to present to the argument.

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For a man who claims to love his own son so much you are more than happy to have the same little similar faces murdered and destroyed before even being allowed to breathe their first breath. How can you truly look at his face and know millions just like that are murdered and destroyed every year... all because of like minded people as yourself.

Yet again you have fallen off the beaten path of this discussion, and yet once more try to lump the issue at hand into general concepts and turn it into a witch hunt. Yes I do love my son, and he was planned (resonsibility right?). I also consider myself very lucky he was born a happy and healthy baby. But on the other side of the coin, I can also understand why others may have the need to have a D&X procedure performed on a brain dead fetus or if the mothers health is at stake. You just don't get it do you, D&X procedures are not only extremly rare, but are only performed under certain strict conditions. Save your Right to Life propaganda for the idiots who don't know any better.

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A strange sense of irony. I think I would make a better father than you.

Possibly the most idiotic statement you have ever made. We should all be thankful your gene pool hasn't delineated any further than it has. If anything, you would be the perfect poster child for birth control.

I am pro-choice. But I agree with C. Everett Coop when he says that there is no medical reason to perform a D&X. I also do not agree that with the left-wing conspiracy theorists that this is a prelude to an all-out attack on RvW. Banning the Sticking of scissors in the back of the brain of a viable fetus and then sucking its brain out does not seem unreasonable to me.

Even if it does just prevent 650 abortions a year.

Ok... I have a question for you then... say the pill doesn't work? A woman is taking the pill regularly, but lo and behold, one day becomes pregnant? It is not 100% effective, y'know... is it fair for her, just because she was sexually active, to have to have a child, quit school, be shunned from her family, and go on welfare one day (maybe a bit extreme)? Personally, I think that's crap... Things happen... people make mistakes... would it be better for a child to be brought into the world that isn't wanted? Would it be better for said child to wind up in the dumpster just outside of the hospital? I love my girlfriend, but I know that we are probably not going to be together the rest of our lives. I already have a daughter from a previous divorce, and I hate the fact that she can't have both parents all the time... I wouldn't wish that on any other child...

Wrong according to who, you? Prove my statements wrong. Again for the record, I never stated I was for abortion being used purely as a means of birth control. You Pro-Lifers just can't make that distinction can you?

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Second, find me the stats of the number of women actually saved by having an abortion from 1970 until now. In other words you pro-baby killers, show me the fact sheet on the number of women who were on the verge of death until they had an abortion, then sprang to life.

How about you proving your own argument for a change. Go ahead and Google away, I'll wait.

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Third, you are for coathangers but against guns. Why? Do they both not get used in the murder of humans?

I don't believe the use of coat hangers is a viable medical procedure used by doctors when performing abortions. I see your programing by the religious right is totally blinding your rational thought pattern. Wrap your head around this one skippy: Why is it not alright to end a pregnacy when the fetus is brain dead, but it's acceptable to kill an adult in a gas chamber? Killing is still a form of murder, right?

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Fourth, why didn't you abort your baby?

I bet your the type of person who would scream at young distraught mothers on their way to the local abortion clinic from behind the barricades holding up a picture of a bloody fetus for children to see , aren't you? Why would I want to have aborted my planned and healty son?

I haven't lost sight of anything. We are discussing "partial birth" abortions. Since when is this a first term abortion? It is you who are turning things around as you usually do.

Stop using the bullshit PC term of D&X. These dilation and extraction abortions are murder. Shoving a peice of metal through the head of a healthy infant and sucking his guts out with a vacuum does not deserve a touchy feely name like a D&X procedure. You say that lightly almost like it was something benign like a blood pressure check or something.

And yes... most of the partial birth abortions performed in the US are done to healthy babies that could survive outside the womb by themselves. Most are not performed for any medical reasons.

The fact is you abortion people make every excuse in the world to make it OK for a woman to have an abortion right up to the moment of natural birth. After all... it's her body until the baby is out right? She can do whatever she wants....

It's too bad your mother didn't have a big pair of scissors and a suction vacuum handy. There would be just that much less amorality and blind leftism in the world today.

First of all...... If you want to avoid having a child that much.... and your only method of contraception is your reliance on your girlfriend taking her pill everyday at the same time.... you are a fool. You don't want kids... you put on a bag, regardless of what she says. That is being responsible.

Secondly... Why do all you people seem to feel that every woman who has a child outside marriage goes on welfare? What happened to the father? No responsibility in the situation or are you forgetting him for the sake of your argument?

I seem to recall you liberals were very successful at getting laws passed in all 50 states regarding deadbeat dads. There is even some federal regulations if the guy skips over state lines. He pays or goes to jail. Let me get this straight.... all these women you are talking about are getting both welfare and child support from the males? Nice racket huh?

The women have all the rights with these issues. If you wanted to keep the baby and your girlfriend wanted to abort.... you don't have a damn right or say in anything.

Like I said...not going to get involved. This issue just goes around and around and never finds a viable solution.

(washes his hands of it)

Pass me the hand towel when you are done.

Damn it. Why does this have to turn into an overall abortion debate? What do you all think about the new law? It doesn't make all abortions illegal, and as Sean said the President doesn't think that our society will accept abortions being illegal, so they probably never will be.

This procedure, according to what I have seen testified to, is not a necessary medical practice. It is dangerous to the women who have it performed on them, and it is just brutal as hell to the baby. BTW, two polls that I have seen show that 70% and 62% of the country support this new law.

Yeah... That's right. It shouldn't be an overall abortion debate. The left however views this bill as the first hurdle to eliminate abortion in America.

I think the bill is great. Long overdue. This partial birth shit is an infamnia.

I don't put much faith in polls but this one claims 84% of America agrees with me.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr031106.asp

Run Sean run...You little curr. Are you to afraid to attempt to back up your claims and beliefs?

You said that you didn't kill your son because he was healthy and wanted. So, you are in favor of baby killing for purely birth control reasons. You also favor killing unwanted babies. You probably really enjoy killing babies who may be born retarded.

The numbers often used by pro-abortionists to back their claims are vast fabrications mostly made up by the pro-abortion lobby as admitted by Dr. Bernard Nathanson, founder of NARAL. The real numbers of deaths before 1973 are shockingly different. Thirty-nine women died of illegal abortions in 1972, the year before Roe v Wade. Those are thirty-nine tragedies along with their thirty-nine children who also died because of abortion's violence. The true reason the deaths have decreased from abortion isn't legalization, it was the widespread introduction of antibiotics into medicine that saved the lives of women who would have otherwise died of botched abortions. In fact, the main forms of abortions have changed very little since the middle of this century! The only thing that legalizing abortion did was to give abortionists the right to hang their shingle on the front door and stop using the back alley!
Mothers deserve better answers than the death of their children through the violence of abortion, legal or illegal. Help us support the work of the more than 3,000 mother helping centers committed to providing real life affirming options for these women and their families.

Concerning rape: We don't cure illness by killing the patient. Aborting a child with a disability or illness is the height of prejudice. When a family learns that the child they are expecting may have a special need, that family needs support and good solid medical information -- not the death of their most fragile member. Society must flee this attitude that uses arbitrary yard sticks to measure peoples worth.
When a woman has been raped or a victim of incest, she has been the victim of a terrifying act of violence of which she is a true victim. Tragically, we are some times faced with a second victim of this great crime committed by the rapist, a baby. While pregnancy is extremely rare from rape, it can happen. The cruelest thing that can happen to the women in question is to now be pitted against her child, who is the second victim. In several studies done across America, women who were encouraged to use abortion in such circumstances felt that they had been put through a second act of violence, the violence and pain of the mechanical rape of abortion. Worse than that, they stated feelings of being made into the victimizer of their own child. they felt that their baby had paid with his/her life for the crime of the rapist.
Meanwhile, mothers who found support to carry their children to term, whether they opted for adoption or kept their babies, felt that they'd turned something horrible into something life-giving. The key here is support for both victims, mother and child.

Have you taken your med's today? Not every abortion performed is a D&X. Why can't you make this distinction?

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Stop using the bullshit PC term of D&X. These dilation and extraction abortions are murder. Shoving a peice of metal through the head of a healthy infant and sucking his guts out with a vacuum does not deserve a touchy feely name like a D&X procedure. You say that lightly almost like it was something benign like a blood pressure check or something.

No I won't stop calling the procedure a D&X, it is the proper name that Doctors decribe the medical procedure as. "Partial Birth" is a phrase coined by the Pro-lifers. How can this procedure be murder if the fetus is brain dead?

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And yes... most of the partial birth abortions performed in the US are done to healthy babies that could survive outside the womb by themselves. Most are not performed for any medical reasons.

I'm calling you out on this statement. I've shown you my evidence that an D&X is not performed for most abotions, where's your's? As a matter of fact, the idiots who crafted this new law couldn't even get it right. As it stands now, they are banning a procedure that doesn't exist:

http://www.thetalentshow.org/archives/000178.html

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It's too bad your mother didn't have a big pair of scissors and a suction vacuum handy. There would be just that much less amorality and blind leftism in the world today.

The same could be said about you old man. You still sound like someone to me who was dropped at birth.