Well, it could be argued that it doesn't refer to a specific God, but...

It does give implicit endorsement of a religious view - that is one of a monotheistic belief. Therefore, it excludes some - Hindus and atheists for example.

It was placed on coinage during the 50s, at the height of McCarthyism. Same with placing "one nation, under God" in the pledge.

As far as the oath - that's not required, and I don't think a bible is, either. Much like the presidential oath - nowhere in the constitution does it say the oath requires a bible. If Lieberman were elected to be president, you can be sure he wouldn't use a bible. One of the reasons it wasn't is because some religions do not believe in oaths - for example, Society of Friends (Quaker). Quakers do not believe in signing or reciting loyalty oaths. (If I recall correctly, if a Quaker were to be elected president, they generally would switch from "I do solemnly swear" to "I do solemnly affirm." Yeah, it's a matter of verbage, but a very important one to them.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The word God does not establish any particular religion. A liberal judge can construe the Constitution to mean anything he wants. That's not his job. That's why I support a Constitutional Amendmnet to further define the federal judiciary. It's out of control.

Yeah Leiberman could use a Bible... Maybe not the King James but he could use The Old Testament.

The Old Testament is not the bible. He won't use the King James, he won't use the New American, the New International, or any other version of the bible. He will use the Torah/scrolls if anything.

Ok, it may be in the books (I'll take your word), but having it as a signature basically shows you are gloating about what it says and are all proud of it and stuff. That's what I meant about it being non-Christian.

Well, there are Christians who believe that the government has no business in religion, AND that religion has no business in government. I happen to be one of those.

I'm not a christian in the sense that I want everyone to become one or that everyone needs to become one. I believe there is a God, I was raised a Catholic (and I still consider myself to be one, even though I'm not exactly practicing - I have several issues with the church (not even touching the pedophilia stuff)). I do not agree with Jehovah's Witness members (or any religious organization for that matter) going door to door to try and "spread the good news." Each person will find it if they want to, and whatever version they happen to end up with, be it Catholicism, Baptist, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or whatever -ism. If they ask someone about their religious views, then tell them. I'm fine with different religions, and I don't think anyone is excluded from heaven because of it. I think that someone is more in the grace of God in how they treat their fellow man, how they conduct themselves in their lives.

I also don't think going to church says squat about how much of a christian you are. As Off2 I'm sure would agree with me, that really doesn't say how "good" of a Christian you are. I know too many people who go to church but are foul, foul people.

But...that's just my opinion.

Hell yeah... I saw Bill and Hillary walking out of church with bibles in their hands every Sunday on the news for eight years (You think they have been back since Jan. 2001?).

Good post overall. I do however disagree with all this crap to remove God from currency or oaths etc. The people fighting it really don't care about offending other people. They just hate the Judeo/Christian ethics and are waging war against it.

I've been hearing good things about this book that just came out regarding this subject(by Rush's brother...let's hope he doesn't have a maid). It's supposed to be very well researched. I think I may order it.


Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity

Awwwwh, say no more, Moby. You sound like you are in my shoes about 5 years ago. A recovering Catholic. Maybe a sweet beautiful girl will appear in your life to help lead you in the right way. If you already have a sweet beautiful girl in your life, but is in the same boat as you, I hope ya'll find the right path that fits you guys best... that may actually help ya'll grow together even better! I too have a problem with Jehovah's Witnesses and those type of people as well. I know they want to do the right thing and all, but I believe they are going about it the wrong way completely. The first impression I get is... uh oh, a cult. That's not the way you want to spread his word. The worst part is, some lost souls see that and a few other examples and automatically decide that religion is wrong. Same thing with the deal with a few priests. All the bad is portrayed in front of them and none of the millions of wonderful stuff a church does for the community gets shown. I guess that's why we as Christian's need to spread his word so we can show these people the real truth... not just the stuff the news covers.

Well, I've jumped in quite often as a matter of fact. OWNED!!!

Moby and the rest....I have said it before and will one time say it again.

Going to church makes you a Christian as much as going to the pet store makes you a dog.

You can, but shouldn't, equate the two. If you are going to judge a man, judge him by what is in his heart, or political party affiliation.

It is our job to go out among the world and spread the Good News. It is not our job to go out among the world and ram it down your throats. I will talk about with a neighbor for two or three times tops, and if he chooses not to go to church or become a Christian, I never bring the subject up again. We are not changing that man's heart, Jesus is. We are merely to plant a small mustard seed.

Actually, (not to give too much ammo to the conservatives on here, dammit...I hate to do this...) but "In God We Trust" first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.

You can read about it on the U.S. Treasury Website.

"In God We Trust" was made the national motto in 1956, but the saying had been on money for nearly 100 years by that point.

Yup. But it wasn't law.

E Pluribus Unum should be the national motto (or is it one of them?) "Out of many, One." (Or something along those lines)

Are you serious? You are completly within your rights to pratice whatever religion you want, and to raise your family the same, but if you and I were neighbors, and you started "Talking Shop" to me or a member of my family, it would be the last discussion we would ever have as neighbors.

Ah, ok...gotcha...

(Whew...still on the left. )

And how long was that coin minted for, a WHOLE nine years (1864 through 1873).

:rolleyes:

Well, anyway, to bring it back to the topic that we started with....heh heh heh...

Like Father, Like Son.

Heh heh heh heh heh....goodbye!

Wow. Sean are you that against religion? An Honest question: Did religion or someone religious hurt you in some way? I am an atheist but I can still talk religion in an academic way. And even when my father/two Uncles/numerous good friends (all devout born-again Baptists) start to discuss the benefits of 'being saved', I don't think I have once decided I would end the relationship with them just because they are sharing thier beliefs with me, or even trying to convert me. Cjb said that he would not push hard, and he would back off if he met resistance. It just seems like a harsh reaction is all.

Wilmac, I will bet you $1 (a standard Duke/Duke bet ) Bush gets relected.

I am not a Christian either, but I have no problem with them coming to my door to tell me about it. They think that it is what they are supposed to do, and as long as they are not pushy I have no problem with them. One of the local preachers and his stopped by a few weeks ago. I told him I was not interested, and he told me to have a good day and left. Pretty simple really.

You're ON! Heh heh heh...in one year, I'll have a dollar...heh heh heh

Well then thank God that we aren't neighbors there jerky pants.

Thanks FlyerFan, but it isn't like I come to their door and come right out and say get saved. I am not one of those kind. I only discuss my beliefs when I am asked or they become relevant. We are all not Jehovah Witnesses that come to your door throwing Bibles at you. Heck, Falwell doesn't even do that. Sean, you have some issues somewhere regarding religion. By any chance were you Catholic as a little boy?

And that I think is perfectly acceptable.

Don't worry WilMac... give this forum a good couple months. When you see how nasty a bunch of the athiest liberals get on here, you'll come back to at least the middle left with Moby. However, God seems to be a lot more in your life which could bring you to the middle. I don't expect you to come to the middle right with me because of fear of being wrong... I won't make fun of you or pull out the "I told you so" if that helps.

Oh, I'm quite in the middle. I just lean more towards a socialist society as ideal than capitalism.

Plus, I don't discuss the things that put me in the middle. Those are hot topics that I'm not going to touch with a ten foot cattle-prod.

You are contradicting yourself, yet again. My comment was directed to this quote:

"It is our job to go out among the world and spread the Good News. It is not our job to go out among the world and ram it down your throats. I will talk about with a neighbor for two or three times tops, and if he chooses not to go to church or become a Christian, I never bring the subject up again. We are not changing that man's heart, Jesus is. We are merely to plant a small mustard seed."

You clearly state that YOU bring up the subject first. I don't need an organized cult to tell me that we are all born into sin, or to teach me between good and bad. Like I've posted many times, I have nothing against religion as long as you keep your beliefs to yourself. If you want to talk to me about something, talk to me as yourself, a man, not as a spokesman for "God".

PS

I myself was christened in a Catholic church, but the brainwashing never went farther than that.