Which brings up an interesting question...

Which version of the Ten Commandments did he have?

The Catholic? The Protestant? The Hebrew? They are all different wordings. (Catholic #1 is a combo of Protestant 1&2, Protestant 10 is a combo of Catholic 9&10.)

If he decides he wants to read those commandments from the bible, will he use the King James? Catholics don't use that bible, they use the New American.

Here's a funny little quote:

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history (Detached Memoranda, circa 1820)."

Note the word between. That means both ways. And that's James Madison.

Madison didn't even think there should be chaplains in congress, nor even in the military:

Madison\'s Detached Memoranda

We should all just make a different version of the bible to satisfy our beliefs. That is what we have now! Oh yeah, and I had a question. Where does it say in the bible that priests should rape and sexually assault little boys and girls? We are not just talking about isolated incidents people. How can you deny that there is a huge problem with the catholic church (the most members in the world)? Maybe they should put the 10 commandments back in the court house for all of the rape and sexual assault trials.

Of all the people that are so opposed to the 10 Commandments, I wonder how many of them have begun their Christmas shopping yet.

Everybody celebrates Christmas. It is just as much a commercial holiday as a religous one. There are plenty of people that just celebrate the getting together of families. I used to be a strong Catholic. I was even confirmed in the Catholic church. I never really asked myself why I believed what I did believe. Then I realized, that there isn't any cold hard proof for believeing what I did. It was all based on faith. The Church is very powerful and influential. Since the beginning of it's existance it has murdered people who opposed it and twisted things to suit them. They are rich beyond belief. Most Roman Catholics are usually baptised at 1 to 5 months old, not nearly old enough to make an decesion. They use scare tactics such as, if you don't do this you are going to hell ect.. Everything is switched around to fit the situation. If someone almost dies and is saved at the last moment, then it is God who saved them. If someone dies like at 4 years old of some freak thing like murder, then it was just their time to go. What the hell is that? No one ever gives God credit for all of the bad things that happen. The Twin Towers were attacked in the name of God. You don't hear anyone blaming God for that do you? I am actually trying to keep an open mind, gathering as much information as I can. I will make a decesion as to wether I believe in God or not. I have tried praying, talking to priests ect...and they cannot answer my questions. I am just looking for answers, and discussing these topics with people is probably how I will solve my dilema.

Of course it's all based on faith. Some historical stuff of the bible is true, while other parts are faith based. i.e. A man living back then is generally accepted to have been Jesus, but nobody has proven he really walked on water.

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The Twin Towers were attacked in the name of God. You don't hear anyone blaming God for that do you?

No, because God gave you the ability to choose right from wrong. What you do with it is not his fault.

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I am actually trying to keep an open mind, gathering as much information as I can. I will make a decesion as to wether I believe in God or not. I have tried praying, talking to priests ect...and they cannot answer my questions. I am just looking for answers, and discussing these topics with people is probably how I will solve my dilema.

If you are looking for concrete answers, you will be looking forever. That's what faith is. I'm not aware of any religion that claims to have all the answers.

That's a funny one... My wife just reminded me that christians have hijacked a pagan holiday with their christmas... 21 dec was (and is still celebrated) by many peoples (mostly in nordic countries) because this is the winter solstice and the days start to get longer... Getting more sun in the winter is a good reason to celebrate...

I'm really not here trying to push my religion on anyone. I accept everyone for who they are, and seriously try to not judge anyone, despite my difference of beliefs. My point of beginning this thread was to get people thinking that Separation of Church and State does not mean obstaining from God or religion in State offices. When the President is sworn to office, he swares on the bible in front of the entire country, when we are called to testify under oath, we sware to God we'll tell the truth, on every American legal tender, "In God We Trust" is written on it, and almost every single government office is closed for Christmas and many for Good Friday. For the most part, most everyone would agree with a majority of the 10 Commandments, regardless of their religious beliefs. Who does not believe we should not murder, or steal, or commit adultry for instance. Our laws are based on those beliefs. What part of the 10 Commandments do most people not agree with? Misusing the name of the Lord? Honoring your father and mother (any of you have children)? Give false testimony? Making yourself an idol? Coveting your neighbors house, or wife, or belongings?
What is really horrible about those? What is it about those that offend so many (or so few) people? Do you have any idea what our country would be like if those were not in place? But you know, I understand in a way. I was atheist for a great deal of my life. If I was asked 5 years ago if the 10 Commandments should be removed, I would have agreed, believe it or not. I too celebrated Christmas for the sake of family togetherness, and wore no reference to the Christ part of it. Now thinking though, a person celebrating Christmas, who does not believe in Jesus Christ, is like a Communist celebrating July 4th.
But the thing is, we try too dang hard not to offend anyone. We seem to try so hard to especially not offend the 2% of the population, that we end up offending the vast majority. A few people are upset with the Pledge of Allegiance, so to satisfy those few people, we remove it from school, some people don't get hired because of their race, so affirmative action is implemented, which specifically is designed to be used as a quota, which causes more descrimination (but because it descriminates against a larger population, it's okay).

Anyway, I've gotta say, although this thread fired up a lot of people, I'm glad to see how we can oppose something, but be civil at the same time to one another. I may not agree with you regarding the subject in general, but everyone seems to have the ability to think for themselves, and I do admire that quality of others, and respect you all because of it.
Thanks for the debate, and I'll see you in the other forums!

Chato

Which is a personal preference of the incoming president. It is not part of the oath of office, as defined in the Constitution. He doesn't have to use a bible, and he doesn't have to swear - he can affirm (the are not the same thing). Does anyone honestly think that Lieberman, if he were to win, would use a bible? You're kidding yourself if you think he would.

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when we are called to testify under oath, we sware to God we'll tell the truth

Depends on where you are, apparently - someone said Maryland does not require that.

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on every American legal tender, "In God We Trust" is written on it

Which came about in the 1950s, not when the country was being started.

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and almost every single government office is closed for Christmas and many for Good Friday.

What government office closes on Good Friday? No federal offices do.

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For the most part, most everyone would agree with a majority of the 10 Commandments, regardless of their religious beliefs. Who does not believe we should not murder, or steal, or commit adultry for instance. Our laws are based on those beliefs. What part of the 10 Commandments do most people not agree with? Misusing the name of the Lord? Honoring your father and mother (any of you have children)? Give false testimony? Making yourself an idol? Coveting your neighbors house, or wife, or belongings?
What is really horrible about those? What is it about those that offend so many (or so few) people? Do you have any idea what our country would be like if those were not in place?

Commandments 1-3 have absolutely NO place in government. Commandment 4 is a personal issue. Commandments 5-8 affect other's lives. They are the ONLY ones you could argue any laws are based on. Commandments 9-10 could never be enacted into law in a capitalist society. (Going by the Catholic version)

Nothing is wrong with them, but what about people who do not believe these commandments - that is, people who are of another religion? Non-Christians, non-Jews. What about Hindus? Buddhists? Would anyone have a problem if some words from Buddhism were put in the court?

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Now thinking though, a person celebrating Christmas, who does not believe in Jesus Christ, is like a Communist celebrating July 4th.

That doesn't jibe. July 4th isn't a holiday for capitalism and democracy. It's a holiday commemorating Independence. Now, if you had said, "is like a Klan member celebrating MLK day"...

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But the thing is, we try too dang hard not to offend anyone. We seem to try so hard to especially not offend the 2% of the population, that we end up offending the vast majority. A few people are upset with the Pledge of Allegiance, so to satisfy those few people, we remove it from school, some people don't get hired because of their race, so affirmative action is implemented, which specifically is designed to be used as a quota, which causes more descrimination (but because it descriminates against a larger population, it's okay).

It's not a matter of people being offended. It's a matter of how the government and religion should not interact. Would the 10 Commandments in there offend me? Nope. But I know it shouldn't be in there, because it gives the implicit notion that Christianity is held higher in this country than other religions, which goes completely against one of the major reasons this country was founded.

I asked this before, and nobody answered...

If you owned a business, and your manager put a Wiccan monument in the lobby, what would you do? Even a crucifix on the wall - it may not be what everyone in the office believes, but it sure makes it look like it does.

How? When was the last time you had something pushed upon you without your consent?
It doesn't happen. Quit running into the closet full of fear. It isn't the dark ages anymore.

Hey Moby, the same applies about all your Jefferson quotes. They can't be found either. Did you ever read what it says in the Jefferson Memorial?

Wrong, thanks for playing. What isn't real and factual about the Bible? Except for the big faith things, almost everything has been proven. You better wake up and do some research instead of running your mouth on ideas brought on out of your lack of understanding.
The Ten Commandments have no place in court. The dumbest comment yet. Our laws were written with the Ten Commandments as the backbone. That's like saying you can swim in the pool, but don't touch the water.

The quote I use 99% of the time of Jefferson's is about the "wall of separation" and it very much has been documented.

How do you enforce #1-4 and 9 and 10? What laws refer to them or even have something remotely in common? Only when it affects someone else has there been anything close.

(Again, for simplification, I'm going by the Catholic version)

Bush's Faith-based Inititative.

So, how did Moses part the Red Sea? How did they fit all of the animals on the ark? How did Jesus feed all of those people with one piece of bread and a fish (could be innacurate)? The bible is a story book. Another thing they need to make their mind up is when the world is going to end and when Jesus is going to rise again! It keeps gettting moved back because it doesn't happen when the bible predicts it will.

Actually, I seem to recall seeing how they came up with a theory as to how that happened. It wasn't in the grand style of Heston. Rather, it was the result of drought. The sea got so low that it actually exposed the bottom. Granted, it's only a theory, and who knows how severe a drought could be to cause that...

Explain to me just how many animals you think were needed and why?

Where does the Bible, (not a story book), mention the exact date the world will end?

I can't explain the Red Sea miracle. No one can. We are not God. His ways are not ours.

Moby, lets not be so liberal and literal in our thinking. OK, not every commandment out of the Ten gets used in our laws. Some of them do however.

Bush's faith based initiative is for every religion under the sun. Any religious school doing good work for the kids and community will be subsidized. This isn't just for Christians. And it isn't being pushed upon you.

But isn't that picking and choosing? I mean, if we are going to base it on them, why not all of them?

(by the way...isn't "liberal and literal" kind of contradictory? It's one or the other, isn't it? (I know...you meant liberal in the political sense )

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Bush's faith based initiative is for every religion under the sun. Any religious school doing good work for the kids and community will be subsidized. This isn't just for Christians. And it isn't being pushed upon you.

I'd like to see a Wiccan group get some grants...but I know that won't happen.

It's being pushed on me, because some of my tax dollars go toward it.

(Yes, using the same argument, some of your tax dollars used to go to pro-choice groups.)

Yeah, but my tax dollars are going to welfare which I don't believe in. My tax dollars are going to the arts which I don't believe in supporting. My tax dollars are going to provide pre-natal care for illegal aliens which I don't believe in. You liberals are good at providing lots of special interests groups with money, but when it comes to wholesome family values or morally correct issues, you all shy away and hide behind some trumped up law that doesn't exist like seperartion of church and state.

Your right, the bible does not mention an exact date. It does very vaguely mention certain things happening that will lead up to the date, and people interpret them to say when the world is going to end. Things like a country in the east will fight with a country east of them blah blah blah. Things that could be true on any given day. I am just sick of religous people using things only in positive situations, and when something negative happens or something that they can't explain happens, we hear the good ole God works in mysterious ways speech. If a kid dies when he is 5 years old because he is murdered or something, people just say that God had a plan for that child. What the hell is that? The kid was murdered and never got the chance to live a full life! This could go on forever Off2cjb. You have some very good and valid points, but there is no hard proof that there is a God. There is tons of scientific proof that evolution was real. I am a person that needs to see something to believe in it, that is just the way I am. People have been debating this subject since the begining of time, we are not going to solve anything on the Xterra Owners Club! It was fun and informative debating this subject with you, I enjoy seeing others peoples prospectives. That is what will help me to make my decesion on what I do believe someday.

Well I am not here to make you believe. The Christian religion is founded on faith. Believing in what you can't see, smell, touch, etc... If you don't have it, then you will not be able to be a believer.

And lets not get back on the evolution thing, because there is NOT tons of scientific evidence supporting this belief. People believe in this theory just like us Christians believe in our religion.

Right, but those aren't religion/god issues. They aren't prohibited by the constitution and the bill of rights.

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My tax dollars are going to provide pre-natal care for illegal aliens which I don't believe in.

How 'bout those Cubans that get something like $9000 and free health care from the government? Conservatives aren't going to get rid of that.

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when it comes to wholesome family values or morally correct issues

Ah...thought police, eh?

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you all shy away and hide behind some trumped up law that doesn't exist like seperartion of church and state.

There is no mention of the words "separation of church and state" in the constitution or the bill of rights...I will give you that. But there is also not one mention of the words "God" or "Christianity". And Jefferson and Madison both believed in the separation of church and state (mutually, not just one way), and both said that's what the constitution and bill of rights provided. If anyone has the authority to say what the constitution and bill of rights meant, it's these guys.

Please tell me, show me, where religion/God is prohibited in the Constitution. By the way, isn't the Bill of Rights the first ten admendments of the Constitution?

What Cubans are you referring too? Most get sent directly back to Cuba without passing go or collecting $9,000. Where does this information arise from?

Yes, someone has to be the thought police as a collective society. I am glad to say it is part of the Republican platform thank God.

The Federal Government does have a special program for Cubans. Anyone that makes it to the shores of the U.S. can stay. They automatically get resident alien status under a special refugee program and yes.... the feds give them money. There is a program set up just for them. I believe the whole thing is wrong and should be done away with.

Regarding your comments about the "thought police".... the liberal left has sole domain on this issue.

What are you talking about by saying this is part of the Republican platform?

The Republicans are the ones who should be known as the thought police since they more or less stand for what is morally correct along with strong sense of family oriented value systems.

Not to be associated with the Liberals whose thought police would have us all granting abortions to 16yr olds without parental notification. Or taking all the money made in this free market place and giving it to the self-made poor. Or the ones that feel an owl deserves its home vice men supporting families having jobs. Or the ones that feel committing adultery in a public office is OK and at the same time, reinventing a definition of sex to appease themselves. Or the ones that take away gun rights to satisfy mom's grieving over their killed youngins.