p.s. I read through all this and couldn't find the answer. When did it go ALR?

I think it was around page 5 or so. There was no mention of it being moved, we just found it in the ALR.

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --John Stuart Mill

Branden needs to think real hard about the quote above.

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"

"There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for."

Mahatma Gandhi

I got an email from XOC a couple of days ago telling me the topic was going to ALR. I guess because I was the topic starter I got the notification.

Ah ha, so you're the culprit that started all this name calling and now quoting. J/K it's been a lively debate even though it seems it is no longer about Kerry or what he did.

Who? lol

Definitely entertaining. However if you look closely and avoid the garbage, both sides make some interesting points.

Branden, I'm fully aware of what miners do. My best buddy from HS works in the Pend Orille mine in Washington. You brought up a good point though. Seeing as how it's going to be my first day back I would like to keep the dramam to a minimum. Maybe we can meet up some other time.

Axle

Soo, there's still a chance you're gonna' take the boots to him?

Axle - check your PM's.

On a lighter note -

Welcome back, Axle. I'm sure Rene and the kids can't wait to see you and vice versa. God bless ya for your service and I hope to hit the dirt with you again sometime.

Ok, so what I gather from all of the above is that you are good at mining. Well gee, you had 5 years of training in it, I should hope you'd pick up something during that time. Now, I have a B.S. in Animal Physiology and am about 8 hours shy of a M.S. in Reproductive Physiology. I also spent 5 years in school. Guess what I do for a living. I am responsible for around $20 million in communications gear that allows some guy in a fox hole to talk to the White House. But that's not the most valuable asset I have. You see, I also have 16 of America's sons and daughters for whom I am responsible. While I spent the last 5 years learning to kill people, I also picked up a few other skills. I have no background in the communications world outside of my cellphone. I rely on my paratroopers to do what is needed to make sure the communications systems are working to facilitate the killing of those that would gladly cut your smug throat. Well, most of them anyway. They rely on me to make sure they have the training they need to survive, not so they can come back home, but so they can do their job. You may dig holes in the ground and get lots of money for it, but I'd bet you my job is more rewarding. Life is good - where else can you jump out of an airliner 800ft off the ground, twice, in two days, and call it work?
Edit: I love how many experts on Iraq we have here. Branden apparantly has seen the "killing fields" with the bodies of innocent Iraqis "strewn about". Claus seems to think Iraq is a shit hole. Based on what? When were you last in Baghdad? What about Mosul? Karbala? Just over the fucking Kuwaiti border? Oh I know, you saw it on TV, right? So based on that, California is a state where everyone runs from the police, and belongs in a gang. Colorado doesn't exist - ever hear anything about the place? Here's a hint for you all. Before you go spouting off "facts" about someplace, go learn them first. Iraq is as much a shit hole as the state of New York. Surpised? It's just like any other large geographical area. You have the large cities with their slums and nice buildings, you have your small towns and villages, and you have your beautiful scenic areas. How many of you have heard of Dohuk? Shaklawa (phonetically spelled)? Probably one of the nicest vacation spots in the middle east that's not on the Med. Yup, they're in Iraq.

Iraq is a shithole based on the 2-3 daily emails I get from my old Platoon that is currently stationed at COB in Basra. My statement is also based on the documentary films I have seen (Gunners palace for one) I have not been to Iraq, nor do I need to to draw my opinion. Once you guys leave it will plunge into chaos and reform to the way it has been for the past few 100's of years an ancient culture who has no foundation to get up to speed with the western civilization

my AFROTC commander just emailed this to the corps.
http://pointfiveblog.com/index.php/2006/11/1096

Nice Video!!!!

Hey Inf is your MOS 11 or 25? You sound like a Commo guy!!! I was a 25A, I say was as I ETS'ed in May, but am on the way back in!!!!

Once you feel the honor of wearing the uniform it never leaves your spirit!!!!

Tim

I suppose technically both. Currently 25A though my CIF record still has me as 11B. Let's just say I'm much more comfortable in the 11 arena than the 25 one. I'm still trying to figure out a Fox from a Sierra from a Quebec and a November. At least I get to play in the 11 world next week. Spent my day off yesterday modifying toys from TASC. Training is about to get as realistic as you can get without having chunks of metal flying around.

Yeah I know that one!!!! At least your with an 11 series unit I was with a PATRIOT Bn and a CSH. The CSH is what made me ETS but trying to get a hold of branch to come back in but no one returns emails for phone calls up there!!!! The Border Patrol is pissing me off!!!! Take Care!!!

Tim

Sweet video

Amazing coincidence, as most of the Kerry-like members of the Vietnam era that turned around after flaunting their service like a trophy and claimed the military was full of child murderers. Maybe they are teaching that at higher education these days. Claiming 1 year or ROTC to be an insight into the military world is comparable to my claim that visiting the Crystal Caverns makes me a mining expert. Blow it out your ass.

You are a jackass. Soldiers do not kill for a living. They prevent others from killing your useless, waste of an existence. And they are happy to do it. I'm happy to protect you because that is what I do. And "I for one do not any longer want to kill people for a living". So, you've just admitted that you're a "killer". Where are you hiding the bodies? I have friends that are police near you. Yes, they've served with me. Two of them have degrees, but chose police work. Maybe they can take you downtown for a talk. We already know you would never admit to being a soldier, but you're an admitted killer. Intriguing. And, speaking of morality, what's the morality of mining a substance that people have fought over for thousands of years? Way to promote your pompous feat of finding gold. Check the date on your bible, maybe you'll learn a thing or two about the morality of loving that shiny substance too much. Jackass.

First of all, "whos" is not a word. Considering what you have said above a reality, and not an insult to a soldier is like calling desert_rat's comments to you a reality and not an insult. Your perception means nothing in this respect because you know nothing about the people you have disrespected. You might as well go to Arlington and urinate on a grave. Try it...see what happens. The military members of this country are the only people in America, for the most part, that still have a sense of national pride. It is people like you hiding behind our sense of nationalism that are destroying this country and destroying civilized society, not the soldiers. See how an 18-year old Marine respects a grave site, and then see how a college student acts. The immoral people of American society are the "educated" elitist people like yourself that consider their formal education to be the only true form of civil education. In reality, it is facing the danger of an enemy that has no moral beliefs, does not operate under moral principles like our military, and is truly a killer that educates an individual. Nobody here is arguing that our military members have more formal education than pompous jackasses like yourself. It is education in life that they are rich in, which is a greater catalyst for success than your days spent in classrooms being weakened as a human being.

The thought that you could even put all of that crap into a single paragraph after your bible-thumping and wishing peace on desert_rat is mind-boggling. And, again, let me take time to educate your over-educated ass: "democaracy" is not a word. NY doesn't like the thought of killing people, neither does anyone else. As a soldier, I can tell you that the policies of our military prevent the thought of "killing" from entering the mind of a soldier. Despite the intentions of an opponent in combat, American forces (and that applies to most other nations' militaries as well, including Canada's) are required to show restraint and not "kill". The terrorists that you love so well have no such restrictions. They are true killers. The bodies of Iraqis that are shown with such flair on CNN and your other "sources" are 995 if the time from sectarian violence, which has been in existence since the division of the Muslim faith from the Shia to the Sunni Caliphate. So, you want to tell me that this violence is a result of our military's presence in the area for the last 3 years is the cause of two thousand years of violence? I had no idea. Do you also want to tell me that the genocide of millions of people in Africa is a result of US policy? That our soldiers are killers because innocent people are dying there? You are full of shit. The only innocent people who have died in this war (with a handful of exceptions, there are always outliers) have died as a result of sectarian violence. The fact is that the violence present in that region right now has been in existence there for centuries. The fact that CNN chooses to show it at night does not mean we are responsible for it. Maybe in all your higher education you could have learned some history. A killing field that "our boys brought about?" Join the human shields.

First of all, by calling every one of our soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, and coast guardsmen who has killed a killer is wishing harm upon them. As a society, we apply the term "killer" to murderers and sociopaths, who kill without warrant or reason. As so many members have stated, and as you have blatantly ignored, our military exists to protect. You are wishing harm upon the people that protect your ability to say the things you have by calling them something that is no better than the death row serial killer. I am appalled. I am a Reservist with the US Coast Guard, possess 2 Bachelor's degrees, and have volunteered for service in this war. You have no idea what this war is, because you are an idiot. You believe that is handed down by your fellow peace activist pussies. The same ones that went to the Middle East to be "human shields" to protect terrorists from our troops, and the same ones that came home months later because the terrorists were using you for actual shields. I have served on the front lines in Iraq and elsewhere alongside Marines, soldiers, and sailors. Every person there chose military service, and was proud of what they did. In my unit alone, we had 289 Republicans and 68 Democrats. We we are all proud to serve, although our beliefs might have been different.

Nice...now we're war mongers.

And as for you, SE: I have worked in every level of the military with the exception of NORTHCOM and the Pentagon, and I am very aware of how the machine works. Your military runs essentially the same way, and they are a great bunch of guys. It has been a pleasure working with the Canadian military. During my SAR days, CFB Trenton's rescue squadrons were amazing. Keep yourself a civil tongue and understand when you may have gone beyond the extent of your knowledge of how our government and military work.

And, again, SE, speaking of keeping a civil tongue, time to start biting your own: Now, you've crossed the line. I graduated third in my class in high school, was accepted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, West Point, and Annapolis, and chose an enlisted life because I am inspired by the people around me, who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice so that people like yourself and Braden can continue ranting. Your problem is that you believe intelligence to be a function of education and life choices. I believe that intelligence is also a form of enlightenment. You and Braden can never hope to be enlightened human beings until you truly understand sacrifice.

As for supporting the troops, our government supports our troops. The liberal Canadians and Colorado zealots may not, but I am being cared for better when I am on active military service than I am when I am working as a career professional. Oh yes, and better than that magic kingdom built on a house of cards that is the Canadian healthcare system.

Thank you.

Way to contradict most of what you have already said. Our military is a national police force. And, just like police officers, there are a FEW military members who have killed. The rest defend. I spent a year in 120+ degree heat protecting Iraqi and Kuwaiti and Pakistani and Afghani and Indian citizens I did not know. I was shot at, and did not return fire, because I could not identify a threat among innocent people. Cops do the same thing. They protect you. So do we. Contrary to your beliefs (which I really wish you would stop impressing on the members of this forum: you are NOT an expert on the military, so drop the facade of knowing what they are and what they are about), the military is trained to protect and serve, not primarily for warfare. If you had gone farther than the boy scout camp year of ROTC, you would know that soldiers, and all military members, are taught the basics of warfare as a means to protect US citizens and each other. Police officers are taught the same techniques, just in a different format. It is when military personnel are required to respond to a situation in a warfare environment that those skills are refined. Failing to train our military members the basics of moral modern warfare would lead to the destruction of our country. "Police officers are the enforcers of the state, with the responsibility of maintaining law and order." Soldiers do the same thing as enforcers of national policy. Consider the role of the National Guard during crises.

NY, good point: My father and uncle both served (voluntarily, as did most middle-class Republicans) in Vietnam. The difficulty that they both had was adjusting to the anti-military feeling at home, not what they underwent during combat. True, combat is a horrifying and scarring experience for anyone, regardless of age. However, the feeling of abandonment by those you are serving and protecting is even greater. When I returned from my first (voluntary) deployment, our final flight was to SFO. Our families had been brought out to meet us, and news crews had been requested so that our homecoming could be seen by family members that could not make it to the Bay Area. Because of anti-military feelings of people that consider themselves "educated" and "intelligent" without having a CLUE what our military personnel endure, the news crews declined to cover our homecoming so that they could interview a 20 year-old woman who was having trouble hailing a cab. Sit, and rotate.

. Correct. Since Wikipedia seems to be the official source of information, "Weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a term used to describe a munition with the capacity to indiscriminately kill large numbers of living beings. The phrase broadly encompasses several areas of weapon synthesis, including nuclear, biological, chemical (NBC) and, increasingly, radiological weapons." Iraq had stockpiles of chemical and conventional weapons that had the ability to indiscriminately kill thousands or more. We are still uncovering them. The Iraqi military had buried an entire wing of illegal Soviet MiG aircraft in the sand, which had been outfitted for delivering chemical weapons. Was Iraq not a threat because they didn't practice the indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons? Hardly...there is no such thing as indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons. With a 65 year half-life, nuclear weapons are a weapon of last resort for anyone. Saddam was using chemical weapons indiscriminately on his own people. Much of the development of chemical and biological weapons conducted by his regime was focused on weapons that could be used against other Iraqis. Nuclear weapons would have been illogical.

Wrong again. I received 6 weeks of training to be an interim stress counselor prior to deploying to the Middle East. Upon return, our entire unit was required to go through stress counseling, and serious psychological care was provided if it was needed. All branches of the military now use post-combat stress counseling, and have mobile teams of professional psychologists and psychiatrists that travel to combat zones to counsel soldiers.

Now who's not being civil. By not offering respect of a fellow human being, you're wishing harm (eg: disrespect) on them.

So now madman is leading this country? Funny...I thought you had already mentioned a president. Who else is in charge? You are also failing to listen to new ideas or viewpoints, even those based on fact. It is people like you that fail to see the good done by people like our military, regardless of HOW that good was initiated, and your desire for peace above everything else that will lead our country to demise. The fact that you have chosen your far-left stance and refusal to compromise on the truth that has been presented before you shows the conflict that prevents peace from being a reality. It is people like you that make me happier to be defending Iraqi citizens I have never met, and can not even understand than the anti-military, anti-war faction at home who refuse to educate themselves on the truth.

So are pompous miners. Judging from the outpouring of support for madman, I would say he does have friends.

Nobody is asking you to. They wouldn't expect you to. All we ask is for people to not forget about us while we are gone because of their petty differences, and to support us no matter what the cause. We are your brothers, sisters, friends, neighbors, fathers, mothers. We consider every American, ally, and friend to be family. We look out for each other with a love that you yourself described you would kill for. We are not asking you to respect any of us more than those other people who work dangerous thankless jobs. Just be respectful of the sacrifice they are voluntarily making. That's all.

Amen, brother.

Steve: That was my biggest problem over there. When the MEF left us behind doing coastal patrols, some buddies of mine were having problems with snipers in the minaret of a mosque, and were ordered to not return fire because of the religious sensitivity. It is definitely not a balanced battlefield.

Conundrum found the conundrum with the whole thing: Iran and Iraq were NOT contained. I don't know where you got that tidbit from. Iraq was smuggling weapons into the country for rearmament (hardly an act of a contained dictatorship), and Iran has always been a breeding ground for trained mujaheedin to fight the wars of Islamic fanaticism.

THANK YOU!

. Ok, but several million did not.

Nobody is saying they will not extend respect to the lowly worker. As usual, you are failing to see what is really taking place in this conversation. Those lowly workers wake up next to or with their families and loved ones everyday, and choose to work those jobs and face the dangers so that others can enjoy their lives. Yes, that is true, and true, they are not thanked as much as they should be. Military people work dangerous jobs away from home for months, even years at a time, in an environment that is unknown to them and constantly changing, and where the dangers are never known. If the soldiers stopped going to work, there would be millions of Americans dead. Apples to oranges again...the people you are mentioning deserve that respect. The soldiers deserve a different level of respect, but still the same appreciation for a thankless, dangerous job. I'm a Coastie, do you think anyone thanks us for saving the lives of people who think they're invincible everyday? Of course they don't. Most people don't even realize that people like me go to the Middle East and fight side by side with soldiers and marines on LAND. I'm not asking for recognition, or for a level of respect different than any other hard-working American. But, I will NOT use my education and pompous attitude to try to leech credit from those that deserve it.

Maybe if you have given a chance to respond, we could offer our respects to those that have died.

Tim, that made me cry. Thank you for putting it in perspective.

I don't think he can even comprehend what that is like. God I wanted a beer over there..

InfX708: Good call! Shak l'awa I think is how it was spelled...never made it there but I saw some nice pictures. Thanks also for pointing out the urban environment that seems to get overlooked.

Damn, I needed to get all that out. Sucks I missed the active post...

Nice work.....case closed...cheers!!!!

Tim

Took me a while to get that in there, but I missed the initial post and found it in the ALR while I had some free time at work, and needless to say, some feathers were ruffled. On my way to Arlington to bury another hero: my grandfather who passed away on Monday. A WWII veteran combat pilot with 26 years service. Next to my father who passed away in March after 33 years of service as an Army helicopter pilot (warrant officer) during the Vietnam era and a veteran of Bosnia. And next to my grandmother, an Army nurse and veteran of WWII. Braden could never understand what it means to serve another human being. The true heroes of this country are the ones with simple white gravestones who have died in defense of freedom and in the service of those that are unable or unwilling to protect their dignity at home, not the ones with certificates and degrees on their walls.

No, really, I'm done now