Branden....I will not devalue your peace activism. But I will ask you this....What is worth dying for, in your eyes....not what is worth killing for.....but dying for?

And what do you qualify as important enough to pay that price for?

Just purely out of genuine curiosity and as a point for relativity.

2 chicks at the same time

Fuckin A.

I'm gonna puke.

Let me jump up and down on the roof of that mine shaft for ya there buddy.

What a great question, a tough question. My first reaction is love. I would gladly place my life on the line for my family, my fiance, my friends, and my co-workers here at the mine. I would run into a burning building, knowing full well I would never make it out, to just try to save the life of a child.

Desert_rat - calm down, cool off, I am starting to get as worried about your heart as I am about madman's. Oh, and if you did jump on a mine shaft, you are the only one thats gunna get hurt. Mine shafts are vertical, and if you fall, unless I happen to be right under, you are only gunna hurt yourself. Then I would have to come and get ya out. So please, don't jump on top of the mine shaft.

Now, is there any possible reason that the very vocal republican supporters on this board cannot keep a civil tongue? Why call someone a 'socialist fucking Canadian'? Does that make you feel more right?

Difference between you and me buddy is that I don't wish harm comes to your son. I just hope that while he serves that he opens his eyes and observes how that machine really works.

5 trucks for you.
.[/QUOTE]
That recognized superpower trip thing... it gets old. As soon as the USA turns tail in Iraq you may recognize that the US emperor G.W.Bush has no cloths.

It's too bad that you were wrong about how easy Iraq would be! I had no illusions when it started, it was the wrong way to go in and it remains the wrong way now.

Now if you are wrong about such an easy thing to see I have to ask myself what else are you wrong about.

Nice one... I bet if you said fucking idiot - you could have been twice as right.

Yes, that is pretty simple. In fact it simply does not work that way. You may keep them busy for a while, but these people have a long memory... I hope you can keep them busy for a long time to come.

.. as for the little diatribe about intelligence - this is simply not necessary. I have no doubt that the military is full of intelligent people (though I would have to question, how intelligent?) Kerry is an idiot for saying what he did and not correcting himself. Bush is an idiot for *doing* all the stupid things he has in his presidency - I wont even mention the stupid things he said.

I have the unique perspective of looking into your little magic kingdom built on a house of cards from outside.

oh, yes... must not forget to support the troops like Bush supports them... Go, Go troops... Hurray for Dessert_Rats son.

When will you braniacs figure out that what the current US government is doing is hardly supporting the troops and certainly not doing anything good for that country.

Ummm...yeah.

As far as most of the rest of this thread, at least Brandon is trying to voice his opinion and while I disagree, I give him respect for that. Desert_Rat, in my XOC experience with him has been nothing BUT a stand up guy. Sorry Brandon, but you have to realize you insulted the man and most of his family with the killers comment, so you have to deal with his reaction. It's called accountability. I give you credit for speaking your mind, but be ready when you insult someone or thier belief system to deal with it.

Finally, SE4x4.
Please, leave this thread. We are trying to have a discussion about our political leaders. If you don't like them, bully for you. However, being as you have no say as to what happens within our borders, I am asking you to please leave us be. I am asking nicely, not name calling or insulting your views or opinions, just asking that you let us fight this one out among ourselves. When we start a thread about international politics you will be the first I look for, but in this thread, please leave.

OK, you're a FUCKING idiot.

Hey, how about that. I am twice as right now.

On a more civil note, Jerseydevil said it well. Debates are one thing. Personal attacks on millions of Americans are another. Expect a response.

SE, I'm glad to see you're such an expert on American politics being the outsider looking in. I'd also ask what Canada would be without the US here to protect it for the past century. The US is the most generous country on the planet. We supply more aid to foreign countries (including economic aid to Canada, I might add), than all other countries in the world COMBINED. If there's a humanitarian castatrophe, America is there. We've aided those who hate us because it was the right thing to do.

Call me self righteous, I don't care. Argue these facts and then keep telling me how horrible America is.

Don't you love it when these smug Canadians spend time insulting America and Americans.

I wonder if they do it to take their minds off the fact that their country is on a road to national suicide just like their Western European comrades. They might even have to change the name to "Canasia" within the next generation.

SE4x4... You need to worry more about your own country and the internal road to destruction and implosion that it is currently on instead of always trying to find fault in your far superior neighbor to the South.

I love when you post before you have had your meds. You try and have a nice day and remember we love you, no one is out to get you. The guy at Starbucks is not an Russian agent and people trying to wawe to you are not reaching for their gun.

Have a super day !

When I say "smug", why do you think I'm talking about you Claus?

A tad bit paranoid there Claus.

I wasn't talking about you. I don't think you are a smug guy. For a Canadian, I think you're an OK guy. We have many disagreements, but you are not "smug".

I was directing the comment to other Canadians.

In the future, when I make blanket statements about Canadians, feel free to consider yourself excluded Claus. OK?

I have applied for my citizenship but I am not sure "they" are interested. If rejected I will pack up my shit in a pillow case and sneak across the border at 2am (when the minutemen are at the gas station for more Skol), you will see me in California picking dingleberrys with some guy named Hose b

Are you joking? After all these years living there and having a Canadian wife and child, you still don't have Canadian citizenship?

Thank you for answering that.

Now.....as a point of reference......virtually all those things you mentioned, are why service members are willing to do what they do. They may be directed to kill by their service, as dictated by diplomacy or lack thereof.....By they are also willing to die, in a very tangible, on-the-ground-sort of way for the very things you listed, as they see it, I believe. But given the choice between dying or killing those trying to kill them....I would suspect they would rather eradicate those trying to harm them and their comrades....Human nature. So....the very things they are willing to die for, puts them in line to also make them the things worth killing for.

This thought process eliminates the cause behind the service members being in the situations they are in....and focuses on the basic life and death scenarios they deal with in the real world, day-to-day existence of a war theater. Nevermind why they are there.....How do they survive, and to what end to do they go to do so, in a hostile environment?

Essentially.....I want to know, at what point would you define something as worth killing for?

Holy Crap Branden. Come up out of that mine and get a little sunshine. Military Killers? How about the cops? Well not in Nederland or Boulder 'cause they couldn't find their A$$ with both hands and an Xterra. Real cops then. Are they killers because they'd kill a perp to save your sorry butt?
Who the heck do you think gave you the right to make the choice to pursue your education? Who offers you the cocoon of protection to voice unpopular views? The military "killers" that's who. You may not like the military or it's mission, but you sure are enjoying the benefits.
Yes, if I had to I would kill. I wouldn't like to, but I would to defend your right to spew slag.

BTW is the lake frozen enough yet for us to get in some ice fishing?

NYMM, your assertion that I am attacking America and Americans - total and utter bullshit. My brother is an American citizen. My attack was aimed squarely at the deception that the very rightwing knee-jerk republicans are espousing as the truth, when they would not know truth if it hit them in the gonads. Sorry, something in me just cannot stand lies and lier's.

Well, since we are back to a more civil note, sure I won't post on this tread anymore unless someone responds to one of my previous posts in an indecent way.

Good morning gentlemen

What right wing lies are being advanced here?

What are you talking about claiming to not being able to stand lies? You are a despicable leftist. You're entire political ideology and outlook is nothing but lies and fraud.

I BID YOU A GOODDAY, hey SE if ever close to the Irish Heather let me know, I buy you a killkenny (you bastards[/kyle])

Red - I knew it was a loaded question. In thinking about all this last night, I admit I got a little heated, as we all do occasionally. Please take the time to read this entire post.

I respect those in the military. I do not respect them any more than the construction worker that gets up every morning, a WV coal miner (they been doing a lot of dying this year to make sure you folks can continue to live the lives that you do), the highway worker or anyone else does does a dangerous job, but gets no respect for it. Thousands of good men and women have died in the last few years working jobs that do very much to uphold our current way of living, but you never, ever hear about them.

I got goated into it a little by NY, but in my mind, the fact remains that a military in it's most naked and primeval form is organized and built with the sole purpose of destroying those that do not agree with you. The US military has undergone many changes, but when first organized to fight the British it's only goal was to kill, and thereby gain independence - to make the British not want to stay here. Follow through to about the start of the last century, and the story pretty much stays the same. Today our military performs many other services, many truly humanitarian mission, so to generalize and say that everybody in today's military was a killer was wrong, and I am sorry.

However, there are killers (wikpedia - A killer is a person, animal, object, plant, (etc.) that kills.) among the many other members of the military; I would venture to say there are at least a few who are proud of that fact.

My problem lies more in the idea that a 18 year old boy, with minimal Psychological training is sent to war, then sent back home and is expected to function again as a normal, human being who uses violence as a last resort or none at all. The 17-21 year old range is where people are most impressionable, and in that I can see why so many Nam vets had problems adjusting to normal society again.

My problems also stem from the rising militarism sentiment in this country. It is like people are forgetting that violence should only be used as an absolute last resort. Was that the case with this last conflict? I feel, IMO, that this stems from the violence, and acceptance thereof, that we as Americans are flooded with every day in TV, movies and video games. Respect and thank those that kill in the name of freedom, or the US, or democracy, or whatever, but do not glorify it. It is still a horrible act to have to commit.

Knight – good to see ya. I would not classify cops as killers. Again, there are a few who have killed, however the basic definition of a police force varies greatly from that of a military.

Wikipedia - While military can refer to any armed force, it generally refers to a permanent, professional force of soldiers or guerrillas—trained exclusively for the purpose of warfare

Wikipedia - Police are the enforcers of the state, with the responsibility of maintaining "law" and order (law enforcement)

To me those are two very different defenitions, with two very different core meanings. Trained exclusively for warfare, vs. the responsibility of maintaining law and order.

Also, knowing me better than anyone else here, you know that I sometimes argue, strictly in a vane attempt to make apoint that very few people will ever see. Differing opinions cause thought and progress, thinking the exact same would have never gotten us past the days of the world is flat, and the center of the universe. In conversation we do little but learn; in agreement we do little and accomplish nothing.

We can’t fish Barker in the winter, ice fishing is prohibited due to falling water levels, fucking Boulderites. I am more than willing to get out to your area if you know of a few good spots, my ice fishing experience is minimal. Georgetown Lake after some ice racing would be cool.

Edited to correct a wrong word and a few spelling mistakes.

Teryall or Jefferson could work.
Good point on police military differences. However, killing is killing, correct? Is the physcological effect different for the soldier or cop?

I really did not intend it as a loaded Q.....more just a discussion about philosophies, as that subject intrigues me......why folks develop differing mentalities about subjects. So I wanted to really just discuss what your ideas are on the subject in a way that I can understand.

I tend to be, as I get older, more conservative in my mentality. So, I regard the military as a necessary force. Do I always agree with its mobilization?....No. But, I regard the members of it with respect.....just as any other worker.....for doing what they have been ordered to do.

I apologize if you think my questions were loaded or leading....They were not intended that way. They were really just intended to let me see and hear your point of view.

And with the above post, you opinion is more clearly exhibited to me. And whether or not I completely agree with it, I can respect it as your mindset.

Branden....

You are now doing a lot of back peddling and using definitions to try and obfuscate your original statements. It's not working. Maybe you should have used the John Kerry excuse claiming your statements were "botched jokes".

You mentioned Viet Nam vets having trouble adjusting to society. You know why they had trouble? It was because of people like you. It was people labeling them as cold blooded killers and murderers. It was people like John Kerry and those with his destructive mindset.



On a side note.... It appears the NY Times (The Democrat Party paper of record) is admitting that Saddam and Iraq may have been months or a year away from developing a nuclear weapon.

Maybe John Kerry was right when he claimed for years that Iraq was a threat.

But, that was before 2003 when he and all the other Democrats who had been screaming for years that Iraq was a threat, flip flopped.

Branden was for the botched joke before he was against it.

"All is well...and all will be well...in the garden."

All it comes down to is to tell a decent joke, you need to have a sense of humor. Branden and John Kerry have both shown that neither of them have a sense of humor, hence the botched joke.