Blotched joke??

I bet he wished he could take that comment back.....

His joke about how he loves to crawl through the woods on his belly with his trusty double-barrelled shotgun while hunting deer is better.

In alll fairness, I don't think he intended his comment to come out the way it did.

Still, he's a public figure and since we hold them accountable for every word they say, it was pretty stupid and not well thought out.

And, coming from him, you really have to question whether it was a bad choice of words or a jab towards our men and women in uniform. Bad timing, bad comment, and no matter how bad Bush gets, I still thank the powers that be every day that Kerry is not our commander in chief. I can't think of too many things more demoralizing to our military than having him, Gore, or Hillary at the helm.

Amen, brother.

So...that makes the score:

Kerry: 1
Bush: 23,126

How is this news?

ETA: Yeah, it was a stupid thing to say, but after hearing stupid things coming from our current administration for six years, I'm kind of used to it.

Wow, a classless showing from the left. What a surprise. :rolleyes:

I would have to say that Kerry has more than 1.

And I agree with you. It's not that hard to find a politician that says stupid crap from time to time. Who was it that invented the Internet? Dare I dig up some of Dan Quayle's gems? Come on guys, this is par for the course.

It's not a "classless" lefty viewpoint either. If you want to start talking about "holding public figures accountable" for what they say, don't start with a has-been senator.

Yes, Kerry put his foot in his mouth and said something that sounded really stupid. But what is sad, and this is more a criticism of American politics than of the current administration, is for his faux pas to be escalated into front page news just because it is a week before elections. There are SO MANY important things for government to worry about than some clumsy statements by the LOSER of the last presidential election.

Kerry is so yesterday. Americans really don't care what he has to say. It strikes me as utterly counterproductive for Republicans, especially our commander-in-chief, to give it so much air time. Not only this will not rally his Republican constituents, they will be even more turned off about voting.

Of course, without question, if the political parties were reversed the Democrats wouldn't be any better. Again it is all just a said state of American politics.

_Lazza

I actually think that was the real John Kerry coming out to play. I expect nothing less from Northeast limousine liberals. They give lip service to the "support our troops," but really, deep down, they loath the military.

This whole generation of senior Dem politicians is stricken with the Vietnam syndrome. Every armed conflict is still seen through the looking glass of 'Nam. Kerry's statement was very Nam-esque, trying to beat the tired drum that the poor and uneducated fight in wars. I, for one, have plenty of intelligent, educated friends and family members currently serving in uniform. Kerry can go fuck himself. What an arrogant, self-righteous, pompous ass.

Is Bush and Co. any better? Not really. At least Kerry served on active duty, regardless of how "active" he really was.

Fly... I generally agree with your statements.(except fishing) However. How you serve whether it's active duty , active reserve, or drilling reserve or even (god forbid) the peace corps.. IT IS STILL SERVICE. We will have plenty of reserves coming home from a war. When you place yourself under the service of your country you do what is required , when it is required. War or no war. IT IS STILL SERVICE. Service is service and I respect everyone who has given to their country. You never compare the type of service or duration.
We have Hundreds of millions of the populace who will never serve their country in any fashion.

The guys I really hated on active duty always told you their plans to go on and do something else (greatness). And this service stint was just a ticket to be punched for their resume.That was and is Kerry. I have 20 years active duty service(77-98) and I have seen plenty of these guys. One guy even received PETA membership brochures while we were deployed.

"What an arrogant, self-righteous, pompous ass."

That is Exactly how I have felt about him since the first I ever heard from him. He knew what he was saying and he meant it. The man's a dick!

But Bush sucks too. Politicians in general just plain suck!

succinctly put

This is not surprising. Kerry has made a career out of denigrating and saying horrible lies about the military. That's how he became famous in the first place when he was young.

It's a problem with all these elitist people like Kerry. They loathe most military people.

The truth is, the military has higher per capita levels of educated people than the civilian population.

The truth is, uneducated people often remain civilians and vote for loser scum like John Kerry.

Kerry was saying just last year that American troops were "terrorizing Iraqi's". Women and children. Should we be thankful he didn't call them Nazi's and compare them to Pol Pot like another Democrat Senator did?

Kerry refuses to apologize for what he said and in Kerry's world everyone is dumb because everyone should have known he was talking about George Bush.

Classifying the military in Iraq as basically uneducated slackers must be what Democrats like Kerry mean when they say "We support the troops".

He's running for president again in 2008 by the way.

How can you talk trash about a war hero?

Kerry in 2004, trying to use "his Red Sox" to help get more votes....."My favorite player is Manny Ortez" Fucking clown! All politicians are scum, you either vote for Asshole A or Asshole B but, don't insult me by lieing and sucking ass, jerkoff!

Prefectly said...

Say what you will about Bush, but I don't think you'd ever hear him come out and say something so blatantly disrespectful to our servicemembers.

Bush has had plenty of public speaking blunders, but most of his are just assaults on the English language and not our military's collective intelligence. Bush is a genuine patriot; I don't think anyone can argue that. He's probably patriotic to a fault, but at least it's clear he loves the country from which he's from. Kerry and others like him (Gore, Billary, Kennedy) genuinely loathe the public for which they represent, loathe our military, and want to uproot our constitution with their agendas.

Discuss.

I found this response particularly hilarious:

LOL.....Kerry is an ass-face. I think he just showed what kind of commander-in-chief he would have been had he been elected.

From someone that does not have much vested in the American politics, military and current operations, I have to admit my first thought when I heard what he said was 'damn funny and stupid, he just slammed the troops'.

When I thought about it further - it occurred to me that this may have been a bit of a Freudian slip - as everyone knows that the frenzy of military recruiting is going on in poor areas with less then stellar education levels and local unemployment.

I also don't hear of too many politicians sons and daughters volunteering (both Democrat and Republican - but I would have to say to the republicans - put your sons where your mouth is!)

I have no doubt having heard the explanations and the context of the speech that this was meant as a joke against Bush. It backfired badly. I find it funny that some of the troops are too stupid to see that the meaning was not entirely conveyed by Kerry's words. Sometimes words are said to deceive, sometimes they are misused, and very rarely can words be trusted by themselves.

For some Canadian who claims to not have a vested interest in American politics, you do always have an awful lot to say about it.

If Kerry wanted to make a "so-called" joke about Bush or the Bush administration, he would have included the words "Bush" or "Bush administration" or even "administration" in his comment. He didn't.

Yeah, he made a Freudian slip. It revealed his true feelings about the people that serve in the military.

You are also full of shit with your statement that recruiting is at a frenzy in areas with "less then stellar education levels and local unemployment". If that were true, then why does the military have better levels of education than the general population?

People like you and Kerry are of the same mindset.

My claim to not have a vested interest comes from not taking sides on any particular party, however I do take sides on issues - especially when those issues involve deaths and profits. And is more humanitarian in nature rather than politically biased.

He made several jokes about the administration, then said 'I want to talk about education, but before that I want to say something...' none of his jokes elicited laughs. I would say he probably was feeling that all his jokes were going flat and was probably nervous about what he was going to say.

Well, not being god I cannot judge what his actual intentions are, but it being patently stupid what he said I doubt that was what he meant to say.

...Am I now?
I don't doubt that there are kids that have put themselves through school that are serving in the military, but I doubt many of them have high hopes of landing that great MBA job... Also your general population - does it include people like grandma's from the segregated 50's, and inner city kids who are very uneducated but for whom military service is quite distasteful especially since there is the prospect of easy gang money?

I find it kind of telling that you left out the last part about republicans not having their kids in the frey.

Also wanted to add: I see that Bush is supporting the troops, I think I can offer that same kind of support.
Rah, Rah, Go troops GO!!! - how's that?

Many in the military are using it as a means to get to higher education. Many already have higher education. Many have no interest in higher education, but that doesn't mean they are stupid, nor does it mean that they are there because they didn't choose higher education. Most in the military are there because they want to be. In any case, I have many friends and aquaintances who have been in the military and all are highly educated and/or successful. I can assure you these folks are insulted by Kerry's comment and they should be. I wasn't even in the military and I find it insulting!

ANd I still think Kerry was well aware of what he was saying. The man is the true definition of "asshole!"

I grew up in Hazelwood, a subset of Pittsburgh, those of you in the area know that it's pretty much a "mixed" ghetto, though at one time during the height of the steel industry, it was a booming steelworker community. I went into the military for the GI Bill etc.. Served in Iraq the first time around and though I don't have an MBA, I am educated, (still going to school, and fully certified in my field) in a high tech field making over 70K in Pittsburgh, which isn't a bad salary at all. I owe a lot of it to my military service and if I had to do it all again, I wouldn't change a thing. I'm more a republican than not, and most of my friends are too. I don't know what it amounts too, but a good many of my friends have also served, and now have great civilian jobs.

If I was in Iraq right now, and some politician made the comment that Kerry made, I'd be pissed.

I find it hard that you believe either sides politicians have their kids in the fray? They are all slim when it comes to military service records, not just the Republicans, though I'd wager more republican's children have served than democrat. Wonder if there are any statistics out there in regards?

SE4X4...................

I don't give a shit for current Canadian politics because it is a discussion of who is more lefter....
(you) as a country have been a good ally in the past. But your government currently pretends to be a world (UN)government beleiver on most days.

How about I stay out of Canadian politics with it's communist/socialist overtones and confiscatory taxes. And you stay out of American politics where we are a recognized superpower. And shape the world on a global scale.

SE4X4: although I personally agree with most of what you're saying you should certainly expect to be blasted for saying them, especially in such a blunt manner, because you are not American. Having lived overseas for a LONG time I've learned that you need to be very tactful when entering into contentious political debates, or simply not take part at all. No doubt that folks in Canada know American politics very, very well. Yes, this "fuck off, you liberal foreigner" attitude is appalling. But honestly, you would get the similar response (from different folks) if you were spouting Bush-loving comments. I have a British colleague, an American resident for many years but not a US citizen, who is 100% Republican. Every time I hear him talk politics I get physically ill. But no, I don't say "fuck off, you British twat".

_Lazza

I'm Vewe Wucky I Wetired B4 i was stuk in Irak 2!

Semper Fi,
USMC Retired

Yeah, Bush loves the military. Thats why he's killed 2817 of em! :rolleyes:

Alright, time to jump in. Sorry for the length, but most people won't read the whole thing anyway.

Kerry's comment was nothing more than a misinterpreted joke. I guess people on the right just don't understand humor of any kind. When I first heard the entire quote, I understood what he meant. It was directed at Bush, pure and simple.

I love how NY wants to see "like Bush", or "the administration". I guess we have got to spell it out so simply for people like him, so there is no way to not understand. Or just make sure they listen to the entire thing, instead of just hearing the last part. Freudian slip, bullshit, more like selective hearing for the republicans, and a complete and total lack of a sense of humor.

I think SE is right on when he alluded to the sad story of the feeding frenzy for recruiters in poor areas. People join the military for a variety of reasons, but one of the biggest is because they have no other options. The military has been lowering requirements for service for years, how does that fit into the "well educated" category. While it is true that nearly 100% of the military at least have a high school education, a larger percentage of the general populace have at least some college.

In high school I was accepted to West Point and the Air Force Academy. During that year I broke my left hip playing soccer, and was unable to complete the physical requirements to attend. I joined ROTC at Mines, and was gone after a year. I went from ready for service to running away when I met the very people I would be working with. They were generally substandard students, who I thought would make piss-poor officers - I could tell some great stories about the CU women getting ready for commission.

A majority of people in the military are intelligent, and will recieve an education, but by no means is everyone serving today scholars. Many won't recieve any true education until they get out. After that many will, and have, gone on to great things, but ask them if they were ready for war as a 19 year old high school grad, and many will admit no.

Lastly, we are gunna be hiring an Iraqi War vet here at the mine. He is a great guy, intelligent, hard working, but not educated. He has no skills applicable to our trade, no college, no trade school. But we are gunna hire him anyway, train and educate him, and give him a career with a real potential to make a lot of money.

NY - how many vets have you helped out, given good jobs and education to?

Military recruiters are like cars salesmen. They have to be, and how is the military to blame because "poor people" have no other option but to join up. For many, they should be thankful that the military exists to help them get that needed leg up that they couldn't get in civilian life. I know I am. I would have never had the opportunity to go to college, or get trained in a high tech field if it wasn't for the military.

Military requirements for service elligibility have not been lowered by any means. Matter of fact they are higher now than they were 15 years ago when I was in service. Get your facts straight.

News for you man, NOBODY is ready for war at 19, or even 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 etc...

Just pointing that out....

Brandon, I feel for you. Truly I do. Do you always regurgitate everything CNN feeds you?

How educated is a person who is "gunna" hire a vet?
How "enlightened" are you that you think hiring a vet is like doing him a favor? Is it possible he doesn't have training or a formal education in your field? Sure. Does that make him dumb? No.

Small wonder you stand up for Kerry, you seem stuck in the same elitist mind frame he is. Until He and others like him understand that the Military and those who serve in it are not the welfare leper colony they portray them as, there will always be this issue. The left hates the military, plain and simple.

I already mentioned that both parties do this, but the republicans should really put their sons and daughters where THEIR mouth is.

How smug can one be? Actually I don't really give a shit what politics you play in your back yard, it's when you start trumpeting around how you are a world superpower and shape the world that I think it is not wrong for the world to at least give you a piece of its mind.

To answer another question; I certainly expect to get blasted by small minded individuals that have no capacity past to think anything but 'republican - good; everyone else - baaaad'.
However, I think I have stayed fair and have not said anything nasty about anyone in particlular.

edited to add:
Oh Man, I cannot believe I forgot to express my support for the troops again...
go troops, go... hurrah troops. You can do it!
Uncle says 'have you supported the troops lately...?'

Did you read my reply? If me and most of my friends are Republicans and we served, or are serving, what does that tell you?

Did you read where I said that any politician is probably not going to let there children go into the military? They are all slime in this respect, but if we could find stats on it, I bet we'd find more republican politicians family members served over democrats.

This is actually a great point, well said.

As for your comments jerseydevil, sometimes I don't always feel like writing properly, but I can guarantee I am better educated than you. We have already had that discussion, thought.

We are not doing this guy a favor, we are giving him a chance. His job was killing people, and now we are gunna help turn him into a production miner, something that helps all of humanity. His wife left him 1 week before his return and took his son, because she couldn't handle the military life.

He doesn't have the skills necessary to find employment outside of the military. They did not train him for anything else. They used him, abused him, and tossed him aside. His only other option, as he told us, was to go to work at the local gas station.

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yes

I feel bad for the guy that his wife left. Living in a heavy military community here in Hampton Roads, I can tell you that this is an all to common occurrence with marriages that were started too early by the recruits.

However, when it comes to his not being trained for anything else, I call BS. Having former military in my family and friends who have served as well, I can assure you they do not sit around and play war all day. They are well trained in any number of skills that can get them a job when they get out other than pumping gas. This sounds like someone who didn't pay attention in class and is now blaming the military. Either that, or you are doing it for him. Either way, sometimes life sucks, and it is how you deal with it that determines what kind of man you are. Some, like you, choose to blame the government for choices that were made that they regret later. Others, like me, choose to accept the consequences of our actions and do the best we can with what we are given.

Alright jerseydevil, lets go. For everyone else, off topic, but when challenged I will respond.

Colorado School of Mines, BSc Mining Engineering (pretty much the world wide leader in mining engineering) Graduated with 160 credit hours, enough for a masters at POS schools like CU Boulder and any Cal. university. Took 5 years because I started my masters program in mining engineering, which I will be finishing in the next year or so. Classes were a technical focus (physics, fluids, thermo, differential equations, prob/stats, tunneling, site investigations, and every mining class offered with the exception of explosives engineering II), mixed with a small lib. arts background (political economies of the middle east was my focus). The best part - for one of the toughest engineering schools in the country - it was incredibly easy. I am also working towards a Mine Safety Professional cert., I am a member of the local volunteer fire department, and historical society. I was contracted during my senior year at Mines to locate 30 drillholes for a project in the DR, I hit on 28. The mine is now producing thousands of tons of copper a year, and a little gold everyday, based on my work. And I paid my own way through, I have lots of debt.

Alright, your turn.

To desert_rat - the discussion here has been about education. I do agree that education is not a measure of intelligence, however it does show a certain drive to work to better yourself. Education makes you a better person, period. Does killing people make you a better person? Did you ever kill anybody? Did you ever kill an innocent? Do you ever feel shame for the taking of a life?

To you and your son, and I am being sincere, I hope he comes home safe. And I hope he takes advantage of the college education he can recieve, and goes on to greatness. I hope he doesn't end up getting stuck in Iraq, like Bush.

Oh my god, you are an elitist snob aren't you?
I mean really, kudos to you, you have high academics. That's truly great, but it's a very small measure of a man.

I've never been given nothing in my life. I've scratched and kicked for all that I have and I've done it on my own too. JUST LIKE A BILLION OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

I believe I said it before, and I'll say it again. You ain't nothing special kid.

Branden Branden Branden...

I hope you're wearing nomex undies dude.

Wow...very well educated, I am impressed. However, genius, the challenge was IQ. You have just confirmed what I suspected of you. Good at regurgitating, but not very good at thinking and paying attention. Also most Definitely an elitist who defines himself by the number of diplomas on his wall, and looks down on anyone who doesn't have the same.

You have me beat in education. Hands down. Congratulations. Make you feel better? Now let's see, all I have is my lowly Associates degree in Computer Science. And my CCNA, my MCSE, studying for my CCND, and over 15 years experience in the compter networking and repair field. I also hold several "smaller" if you will, certifications such as A+, Network+, and a few Compaq and HP as well as Fluke technician certs. So yes, again you prove my point that you have sat in the most classes and have collected the biggest piece of paper and as a result, you think you are better than I am.

P.S. I also have no debt, a beautiful wife, and 2 beautiful kids. My wife and I make 6 figures and are financuially secure. Guess that piece of paper on your wall is still trying to pay for itself, huh?

The question was IQ...Intelligence Quotient, and you just showed us all we need to know about yours.

Jersey, we have almost an identical educational background except that I have my mcse and I'm studying for my CCNA, and have recently gone back to school to finish my degree.

It's a wonder how we "low brows" ever make it in the world huh?

Brandon, just to add, I'm 35 and in the black as far as finances go. Not too bad supporting a family on one salary making less than 100K a year eh?...

Just to sort of get back on topic.

What minimum age changes were made? I signed up at 17 with parental consent 15 years ago. My brother in law had to do the same just two months ago?

Branden... You are full of shit. I wouldn't believe anything you said. If you claimed today was Thursday I would still have to check it with a calender. I don't believe for one minute your ROTC story. If anything, this country is the stronger because you never wore a uniform of any type.

The excuses being put forth on behalf of John Kerry are beyond pathetic. He meant to say exactly what he said. Kerry and many people like him and many on this board in this thread have an extremely low opinion of the military that is rooted in ideology and has nothing to do with reality.

John Kerry has been insulting the military for 35 years. Besides his comments calling his own military comrades in arms war criminals in the 70's he also said this about the military in 1972:

"I am convinced a volunteer army would be an army of the poor and the black and the brown." "We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job."

This guy has always had a hatred for the military. Nothing he says is true. There has also never been a disparity of poor and minority people being used by the military. That is nothing but pure leftist dogma, lies, and propaganda. The same dogma and lies are still being repeated by leftists today and John Kerry.

Some facts about the military:

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed112905a.cfm?RenderforPrint=1

Amazing isn't it. High income bracket Americans do join the military. In large numbers too.

More interesting info...

This doesn't even take into account the officers in the US military. This country has the best educated officers of any military on earth. The most educated of any military in history.

The Marines and the Air Force even have higher standards for recruits than the Army does.

You leftists on this board hate the military just like Kerry does. It's part of your insane ideology and the lies and dogma are ingrained within you. Leftist hatred for the military is evident every day in this country. You need look no further than the plethora of lawsuits by left wing universities trying to get military recruiters kicked off their campuses.

I see Branden you are starting to pick up the slack where Kerry left off. Now you are labeling all soldiers as "killers". You even throw in the word "innocent" to denigrate soldiers even further. Accusing soldiers of killers of the innocent.

You are pathetic Branden. What's next? Spitting on them at the Denver Airport?

No I am not special, and as I have said before I have earned everything I have gotten. I am proud of what I have achieved, are you? If that means I am an elitist then so be it.

Education is not a total measure of a man, but it is a piece in the puzzle. What a man does (work), how a man treats others, his family, his friends, his values and his ability to stick up and fight for them are other measures.

As a general rule, education opens doors and is one step in the long climb to being a good person, and helping to leave an impact of this great place. Uneducated people have a lot harder fight, and typically do not achieve nearly as much as those who stuck out the four or more years to get it done.

Can anybody find the full text of Kerry's speech? I can't. What I do find, does not lead me to believe he was making a joke directly at Bush, but at the military in general.

The way I interpret what he said, based on the quotes I can find, it sounds like he is saying.

"If you don't study hard, your only option will be to go into the military, and you'll end up in Iraq". Which to me equals, only under achievers and the uneducated are in the military because that's all they can do.

I mean how can he be referring to Bush when Bush graduated Yale? I mean, I don't really like the guy myself, but he's hardly uneducated.

John Kerry graduated Yale two years before George Bush and with lower grades.

Kerry graduated with a "D" average.

How so? How are you measuring achievement? Sounds very material based to me? I mean, my dad never even finished high school, and is a retired mechanic. He's a saint to me and my family. He was the only bread winner with a wife and two kids, has never done us wrong, has never lead me astray, has never let me down. He's fucking perfect in my eyes. I can only hope I end up half the man he is. Yet according to you he hasn't "achieved" nearly as much as someone who has finished fucking college?

Samuel, we are very close. Maybe I have been at it longer? I have since updated my last post to include that my wife and I are very well off. I guess degrees aren't the only part of an education...

Granted, we my wife and I weren't always in good shape. Had to cash out a nice 401K when I was laid off several years ago just to get by, and sold off a lot of stuff (my beloved Jeep) etc. but we have since with a lot of hard work gotten back on are feet and are making a great comeback!

And after saying this, you still think Kerry is the man to throw your support behind? Does this not apply to the President, or is he open game because you despise the little redneck from Texas that keeps beating you? Lost in all this is that this man who wants to be President has done nothing but insult and undermine the man who beat him, instead of working to show us why he would have been the better choice. I have to admit in '04 I voted for Bush, but only because I felt he was a known quantity. I just didn't trust Kerry, and now I am glad I voted the way I did. I would hate to see what this peron would do as President.

Are Kerry's words and actions the values you look up to and aspire to emulate?

Imagine that...hard work and your life is improving. Who would have thought?

Good job on the comeback, Sam...

NJ - Yes, your challenge was intelligence, however that is impossible to compare, because as NY stated nobody believes anybody else anyway. You have an education, you have continued education, you have a strong family, and you are probably a nice guy, a good person. I don't hold your political beliefs against you, do you do the same with me?

And NY, believe it or not I did do 1 year in ROTC. As stated I lost my nomination to the academies because of the injury and needed help financially. I got various other scholarships and loans to pay when I decided to get out.

I do accuse soldiers of being killers, it is what they do for a living. The Army is there to kill people, pure and simple. And yes, innocents are killed as well. Does that make all soldiers bad, no, but it does raise the question of the morality of that job. I for one do not any longer want to kill people for a living, I want to help people live a better life.

I will never insult a soldier personally, I will never spit on a soldier in an airport. I just feel bad for someone whos proffesion is the destruction of human life, or the aiding of the destruction of human life. I will tell them exactly what I said above, but I do not consider that an insult, I consider that a reality.

Do you, NY, like the idea of killing people? Do you like seeing bodies of innocent Iraqis strewn about a killing field that our boys brought about in the name of democaracy and the US. It deeply disturbs me, but I bet it gives you a nice big hard on.

Edit to add - I never stated I liked Kerry at all.

Oh my god..... I don't even know how to respond to this. You are so woefully ignorant of our military and the soldiers life it leaves me speechless.

Please just stop....... not only are we all uneducated, but we are also by definition "killers" too.... wow... just wow....

Samuel, what does the US military today do? Why do we have a military if not to kill people? Yes it is the most basic arguement you can make, perhaps even a little bottom rung, but breaking the military down, it's sole purpose today is to kill people. Period. Sounds pretty bad, but it is the truth.

Please repond with a differing opinion, please fight for what you believe. Please help me understand what the main function of a military is, cause I guess I don't get it (and please don't try the "but it will save lives in the long run arguement", I don't buy it - how many lives did we save by rushing into Nam?)

[ way way WAY off topic ]

Jersey/Samueul -

I'm not a network guy (I write software) but my experience in the tech industry has shown that a disproportionate number of the skilled engineers I've worked with have not had a college degree. There's just something about this industry that draws creative, hard-working people, degree or not. When it comes to hiring people I look at personality first, experience second, and then at some point I might glance at a candidate's education. It's really not that important, as our industry moves so fast that what you learned in college was obsolete the day you graduated. I suspect it is like that in a lot of fields, but in tech it's pretty obvious when someone is falling behind the curve. It seems that a lot of the grads I've worked with have a reluctance to learn new ideas or new languages. I don't have a degree, but if I did I'd understand where they are coming from. No one wants to spend 4 years and an assload of money only to find that in the real world you can compress that 4 years into about 1 year of hard work in this industry. I'm 28, I have no degree, I earn a great living and I co-own my own software company. Shit, it's not like I'm mowing lawns anymore, I worked my ass off to get here and I'm not taking it for granted!
[ / way way WAY off topic ]

Our military is a cohesive force designed to protect our interests, land, and people. Are members of the Coast Guard killers? They are a part of our military you know.

There are thousands of people in the military that only once a year even shoot a rifle let alone ever see a battlefield. The military is a mini-society all to itself, made up of doctors, lawyers, mechanics, food service personnel etc.

Everyone is a soldier yes. Everyone goes through basic training, learns basic tactics, learns the basics of "war" but then many go to advanced training and become something else entirely, like I said above, and have served their entire lives up to retirement without actually raising up arms against another human being. Is the potential there to take part in conflict and kill another human being? Yes it is. It's there if you are a cop too. Are all cops killers? Do all cops join the force specifically to kill another human being? Are all cops uneducated too?

Yep, I was really killing a lot of people that time I was detailed to fly food, water, and mail down to Florida after Hurricane Andrew hit. Yep, killed me a lot folks. I was US Army, 82nd Airborne at the time....

You're an idiot.

What a fucking twisted asshole you are.

I think terrorists should be killed. They want to kill me, my country, my fellow countryman and everyone else around the world who does not conform to their political and ideological zealotry.

They even want to kill you. Regardless of the fact that that particular endeavor might actually have a positive effect on our society, I would still support killing them before they actually killed you.

Sometimes in military engagements some innocent people do get killed. That doesn't mean you disavow use of military force. It also doesn't mean killing of innocents is an intentional aggression on our part as your sick, twisted mind is claiming.

You're a sick, twisted fuck Branden.

Sitting in a classroom for four years educating yourself on the mathematical formulas for the expansion rate of a methane fart inside a mine shaft has done absolutely nothing at all to increase your mental capacity. It may have even retarded it.

You're right, Couldn't make it past the first paragraph!

You like to critize Bush, a Yale Graduate, and call him Dumb, linking the rest of us to him as being tools. You take him literally regardless of the intent of his words, but your own guy, take him for what he meant, not what he said. Doesn't sound right to me.

No one really cares what he said, those of us who know his record already knew how he thinks of the Military and that is why he lost in '04. Remeber he Personally testified before Congress that he was present and witnessed our troups committing hitrosities, yet he did nothing to stop or prevent it from happening again. He in effect condoned it and help perpetuate it, if in fact it was happening at all.

You forgot he personally killed all the civilians that have died since the illegal Iraq war began. :rolleyes:

Oh, Brother! He must be like some kind of ghost or spirit, or maybe the Whitehouse has some kind of time warp machine to allow him to go and kill, beam back to Washington just in time to make the next Democrat Bashing Press Conference.

Funny what a loosing party will say about you.

Xterrapin/Burden in '08

3rd party politics. Ignocrats in '08.

I have a long family history of military service. The fact that you would even suggest my family is a bunch of killers is inconceivable.

Miner boy, get the fuck out of the U.S. you fucking dirtbag. You don't belong here. France...yeah...France would be a good goddamn place for you. You have the right to talk shit about those in government, but you have no right to accuse over 1 million American citizens of being just simple killers.

May a fucking mine collapse on your worthless ass.

Asshole.

Ok, I really try to stay away from political debates since mentally crossing from right to left and vice versa is practically impossible, but this particular quote just really got to me. The reason we have a military branch of government is for PROTECTION, not killing random people on a whim. It is as stupid an idea as saying the sole purpose of law enforcement is to kill people. Certainly, they have in the past and will continue to do so. My brother, aunt and uncle all served in the Army and never killed a single person. My grandfather served in the Korean War and honestly doesn't know if he killed anyone or not while shooting at the enemy to protect himself.

If, in the line of duty, a member of the military or law enforcement need to take a life to protect themselves and/or others, then I will support them and give them the benefit of the doubt. Yes, there are bad seeds in every job profession (remember when we thought Cathlolic priests were all OK guys). And of course the select bad few are the ones who make the news.

So please, try not to overgeneralize any job profession, especially those who risk their lives every day to protect yours.

When I started in this field, College didn't really offer anything on the network infrastructure side of things. College touched on it, but mostly all the course work was software related (programming languages, database, etc.). Certifications were where it was at for actual networking. For me it was Banyan Vines, Unix, and Novell Netware, which ultimately for me lead to Microsoft, Active Directory etc. I'm only now going back to finish, because my employer will pay for it, and it's something I never finished. I don't actually "need" a college degree, as I am well set in the field etc. Just finishing up unfinished business.

That got a rise out of NY.

Yes, the military has many other functions beyond the battlefield.

Yes, there are many people who never will fire a weapon on the battlefield. Yes, there are people sitting at computers everyday.

But, a military's job, in it's most basic, naked form is to kill people. If it is done to protect US citizens, does that somehow mask that fact?

How does the US military accomplish this? Not by giving terrorists hugs and kisses, but by killing them to stop them from killing me. We are mincing words, desert_rat just doesn't like the term killers - he can not face reality. No matter the reason, if you killed someone you are a killer. Dispute that.

I do believe that the military is a necessary evil, a lot like mining. We have to have mining, but that does not change the fact that it is, in reality, a business that rapes and pillages the mountainside. We do it the best we can, try to save the environment; the military does it the best they can, and tries to save innocent lives. The fact remains that both are businesses that we as a world probably wish we could do without.

And desert_rat, one day you may actually learn to read. Wishing the death of someone else, shows what kind of person you are. You are an angry and distusting excuse for a human being, but I would never wish you or any member of your family any harm. Some people just can't seem to be able to crawl out of those caves and stand upright. Some people still want to run around and fight and throw shit at each other because they can never grasp that which makes us different that the animals that came before us - compassion, understanding, and a want to change for the better. You, my freind, truly are a sad and sick individual who would like nothing more than the blood of anyone who dares to disagree with you.

If you would like a lesson in compassion, I have a bible - we can take a look and see how many times Jesus states that someone should be killed, or have a mine collapse on them.

Are you a Christian, desert_rat or a Muslim? You seem to embrace the teachings of the faith of Islam very well. Who are the terrorists again, peace lovers or cold hearted killers?

We are not mincing words here. You fail to understand the reason that our Military exists.

There are many instances where our military is used in a peaceful manner with no battle taking place, nobody getting killed, and no enemy to engage. You fail to realize that it isn't as cut and dry as you want to make it out to be.

There are countless missions going on everyday, peaceful missions that the military carries out for our country. When Hurricane Andrew hit florida as I have already mentioned, Many companies and contingents were deployed to assist with matters nowhere even close to combat related. As a member of the PA National Guard for 5 years, I was deployed almost every winter to help shovel snow off the freeways and to help clear accident scenes in winter time. Members of our military serve as protection for hundreds of foreign and domestic envoys. Once again. The Coast Guard is an example I already used, which you have failed to touch upon. There are entire brigades in the Army, squadrons in the airforce that have never seen battle. Ever. Yet because they are military they are killers? Their primary goal is to kill? You got it wrong man.

We have military posts all over the world that have never seen combat, have never engaged in any "killing". The 13th Airborne Corp was deployed in WWII and never saw combat, and was disbanded afterwards. Can you seriously call those soldiers killers?

You just don't get it. Yes if you kill someone you are a killer, but you cannot equate the entire military as one single individual and label that individual a killer.

Answer me this Branden. If you belong to a military unit, and that unit in it's entire existence has never engaged in actual combat or was responsible for killing anyone, could you lable any members of that unit a killer just because they belong to the military?

Watch that Bible Thumping, bud. You don't want to be guilty by association do you?

I know Desert_Rat and he is a stand up guy, you can type away and sit back, laughing at the disgusting and dispariging remarks you make just to get a rise out of us lowley folk.

In the end you are no different and your mind is already made up as is ours. What differentiates us is that we beleive in our cause and come up with real plans that you could care less about, except to insert your .02 to bring everyone down.

The US "Killers" will prevail, albeit not quickly or cleanly, but none of us ever thought that would be the case. We know this is a Generational War and a war between ideas (other than 'Cut and Run'). We just think (know) that ours are superior as has been proven in the past when the Electorate picks Republicans who Defend Rights, Fight for Liberty and Economic prosperity.

I hope Kerry runs in '08, that would guarantee another Republican President.

So if you say one stupid thing, does that make you an idiot?

2 Things here.

1. Those who live in glass houses should not cast stones. You throw the Bible at Desert_Rat because it suits your needs. How ironic that you yourself in this thread many times regarding the military and other members have gone against Jesus' own words in Luke 6:31 "Do to others as you would have them do to you." and then get upset when fire is returned. Funny thing about the Bible, it applies to all people, not just those who choose to take it out when it is convenient.

2. For someone who claims to be so educated and enlightened, you have shown nothing but close-mindedness when it comes to the sterotype of ignorant killers you apply to our military, and the teachings of the faith of Islam which you have projected onto Desert_Rat as being hateful and violent. Neither of which it sounds like you have any experience dealing with. Yet you repeatedly want to spew forth about how horrible and evil conservatives are.

Shame on you. Given the schooling you have achieved I would have mistaken you for an intelligent person. Maybe shame on me for being fooled by your facade.

Having read some of the newscasts surrounding this topic I draw this:

Kerry said what he did to point out that many US service men and women have little education and are in the forces as a way to make a living in leiu of other opportunities. Was the comment warranted?, Did Bush have to jump on it and make a big deal out of it offcourse he had..that is the beauty of politics. show me one politician 9other than the dude in Texas) who has not tried to further his own agenda by slamming the the opponent.

Iraq is a shithole, more so than when the coalition "liberated" them does that mean the Service men and women putting their lives on the line every minute of the day does not deserve the respect and admiration of the people who can afford to sit in their plush armchair and be keyboard machos? fuck yeah.

I see the war ending with the next election. No democracy but a few years of civil war untill the next dictator comes along and beats the people into submission is that a bad thing?. not if you look at the culture and history of the middle east, we can not force a western way of living on to a people that are still living in the middle ages. Terrorism can be contained not defeated.....

Samuel - you are correct, you argue very well. If I implied that all members of the military are killers, I am wrong. I am looking back now and trying to find where I said it, I don't think I did, but it certainly could be construed from my writings. If I implied that every member of the military, regardless of duty, is a killer I am wrong and apologize.

Not every member of the military is a killer, but you have admitted that some are. The term is a bit harsh, but I am sticking by it. Being a member of the military does not make you a killer, but killing somebody does. We both agree at least on this point.

I would disagree with conundrum when he said desert_rat is a stand up guy, he is an angry person that personally wished me harm. I would never do the same to anyone on this board. I find his blood-thirsty attitude to be disgusting, and extremely un-Christian. I hope desert_rat the best, that he calms down, and doesn’t suffer from that inevitable heart attack that will come his way if he doesn’t stop fuming. Peace, prosperity, and everybody living to be 100 and dying next to their loved one is what I wish to see; I don’t want anyone dying, be at the hands of a US soldier, or that of a terrorist. I am a peace activist, if that makes me a pussy (as I have been called before), so be it.

And Condundrum, you are right, we are same, and we both KNOW we are right. I just like expressing a differing opinion in a forum full of war mongers.

Branden....I will not devalue your peace activism. But I will ask you this....What is worth dying for, in your eyes....not what is worth killing for.....but dying for?

And what do you qualify as important enough to pay that price for?

Just purely out of genuine curiosity and as a point for relativity.

2 chicks at the same time

Fuckin A.

I'm gonna puke.

Let me jump up and down on the roof of that mine shaft for ya there buddy.

What a great question, a tough question. My first reaction is love. I would gladly place my life on the line for my family, my fiance, my friends, and my co-workers here at the mine. I would run into a burning building, knowing full well I would never make it out, to just try to save the life of a child.

Desert_rat - calm down, cool off, I am starting to get as worried about your heart as I am about madman's. Oh, and if you did jump on a mine shaft, you are the only one thats gunna get hurt. Mine shafts are vertical, and if you fall, unless I happen to be right under, you are only gunna hurt yourself. Then I would have to come and get ya out. So please, don't jump on top of the mine shaft.

Now, is there any possible reason that the very vocal republican supporters on this board cannot keep a civil tongue? Why call someone a 'socialist fucking Canadian'? Does that make you feel more right?

Difference between you and me buddy is that I don't wish harm comes to your son. I just hope that while he serves that he opens his eyes and observes how that machine really works.

5 trucks for you.
.[/QUOTE]
That recognized superpower trip thing... it gets old. As soon as the USA turns tail in Iraq you may recognize that the US emperor G.W.Bush has no cloths.

It's too bad that you were wrong about how easy Iraq would be! I had no illusions when it started, it was the wrong way to go in and it remains the wrong way now.

Now if you are wrong about such an easy thing to see I have to ask myself what else are you wrong about.

Nice one... I bet if you said fucking idiot - you could have been twice as right.

Yes, that is pretty simple. In fact it simply does not work that way. You may keep them busy for a while, but these people have a long memory... I hope you can keep them busy for a long time to come.

.. as for the little diatribe about intelligence - this is simply not necessary. I have no doubt that the military is full of intelligent people (though I would have to question, how intelligent?) Kerry is an idiot for saying what he did and not correcting himself. Bush is an idiot for *doing* all the stupid things he has in his presidency - I wont even mention the stupid things he said.

I have the unique perspective of looking into your little magic kingdom built on a house of cards from outside.

oh, yes... must not forget to support the troops like Bush supports them... Go, Go troops... Hurray for Dessert_Rats son.

When will you braniacs figure out that what the current US government is doing is hardly supporting the troops and certainly not doing anything good for that country.

Ummm...yeah.

As far as most of the rest of this thread, at least Brandon is trying to voice his opinion and while I disagree, I give him respect for that. Desert_Rat, in my XOC experience with him has been nothing BUT a stand up guy. Sorry Brandon, but you have to realize you insulted the man and most of his family with the killers comment, so you have to deal with his reaction. It's called accountability. I give you credit for speaking your mind, but be ready when you insult someone or thier belief system to deal with it.

Finally, SE4x4.
Please, leave this thread. We are trying to have a discussion about our political leaders. If you don't like them, bully for you. However, being as you have no say as to what happens within our borders, I am asking you to please leave us be. I am asking nicely, not name calling or insulting your views or opinions, just asking that you let us fight this one out among ourselves. When we start a thread about international politics you will be the first I look for, but in this thread, please leave.

OK, you're a FUCKING idiot.

Hey, how about that. I am twice as right now.

On a more civil note, Jerseydevil said it well. Debates are one thing. Personal attacks on millions of Americans are another. Expect a response.

SE, I'm glad to see you're such an expert on American politics being the outsider looking in. I'd also ask what Canada would be without the US here to protect it for the past century. The US is the most generous country on the planet. We supply more aid to foreign countries (including economic aid to Canada, I might add), than all other countries in the world COMBINED. If there's a humanitarian castatrophe, America is there. We've aided those who hate us because it was the right thing to do.

Call me self righteous, I don't care. Argue these facts and then keep telling me how horrible America is.

Don't you love it when these smug Canadians spend time insulting America and Americans.

I wonder if they do it to take their minds off the fact that their country is on a road to national suicide just like their Western European comrades. They might even have to change the name to "Canasia" within the next generation.

SE4x4... You need to worry more about your own country and the internal road to destruction and implosion that it is currently on instead of always trying to find fault in your far superior neighbor to the South.

I love when you post before you have had your meds. You try and have a nice day and remember we love you, no one is out to get you. The guy at Starbucks is not an Russian agent and people trying to wawe to you are not reaching for their gun.

Have a super day !

When I say "smug", why do you think I'm talking about you Claus?

A tad bit paranoid there Claus.

I wasn't talking about you. I don't think you are a smug guy. For a Canadian, I think you're an OK guy. We have many disagreements, but you are not "smug".

I was directing the comment to other Canadians.

In the future, when I make blanket statements about Canadians, feel free to consider yourself excluded Claus. OK?

I have applied for my citizenship but I am not sure "they" are interested. If rejected I will pack up my shit in a pillow case and sneak across the border at 2am (when the minutemen are at the gas station for more Skol), you will see me in California picking dingleberrys with some guy named Hose b

Are you joking? After all these years living there and having a Canadian wife and child, you still don't have Canadian citizenship?

Thank you for answering that.

Now.....as a point of reference......virtually all those things you mentioned, are why service members are willing to do what they do. They may be directed to kill by their service, as dictated by diplomacy or lack thereof.....By they are also willing to die, in a very tangible, on-the-ground-sort of way for the very things you listed, as they see it, I believe. But given the choice between dying or killing those trying to kill them....I would suspect they would rather eradicate those trying to harm them and their comrades....Human nature. So....the very things they are willing to die for, puts them in line to also make them the things worth killing for.

This thought process eliminates the cause behind the service members being in the situations they are in....and focuses on the basic life and death scenarios they deal with in the real world, day-to-day existence of a war theater. Nevermind why they are there.....How do they survive, and to what end to do they go to do so, in a hostile environment?

Essentially.....I want to know, at what point would you define something as worth killing for?

Holy Crap Branden. Come up out of that mine and get a little sunshine. Military Killers? How about the cops? Well not in Nederland or Boulder 'cause they couldn't find their A$$ with both hands and an Xterra. Real cops then. Are they killers because they'd kill a perp to save your sorry butt?
Who the heck do you think gave you the right to make the choice to pursue your education? Who offers you the cocoon of protection to voice unpopular views? The military "killers" that's who. You may not like the military or it's mission, but you sure are enjoying the benefits.
Yes, if I had to I would kill. I wouldn't like to, but I would to defend your right to spew slag.

BTW is the lake frozen enough yet for us to get in some ice fishing?

NYMM, your assertion that I am attacking America and Americans - total and utter bullshit. My brother is an American citizen. My attack was aimed squarely at the deception that the very rightwing knee-jerk republicans are espousing as the truth, when they would not know truth if it hit them in the gonads. Sorry, something in me just cannot stand lies and lier's.

Well, since we are back to a more civil note, sure I won't post on this tread anymore unless someone responds to one of my previous posts in an indecent way.

Good morning gentlemen

What right wing lies are being advanced here?

What are you talking about claiming to not being able to stand lies? You are a despicable leftist. You're entire political ideology and outlook is nothing but lies and fraud.

I BID YOU A GOODDAY, hey SE if ever close to the Irish Heather let me know, I buy you a killkenny (you bastards[/kyle])

Red - I knew it was a loaded question. In thinking about all this last night, I admit I got a little heated, as we all do occasionally. Please take the time to read this entire post.

I respect those in the military. I do not respect them any more than the construction worker that gets up every morning, a WV coal miner (they been doing a lot of dying this year to make sure you folks can continue to live the lives that you do), the highway worker or anyone else does does a dangerous job, but gets no respect for it. Thousands of good men and women have died in the last few years working jobs that do very much to uphold our current way of living, but you never, ever hear about them.

I got goated into it a little by NY, but in my mind, the fact remains that a military in it's most naked and primeval form is organized and built with the sole purpose of destroying those that do not agree with you. The US military has undergone many changes, but when first organized to fight the British it's only goal was to kill, and thereby gain independence - to make the British not want to stay here. Follow through to about the start of the last century, and the story pretty much stays the same. Today our military performs many other services, many truly humanitarian mission, so to generalize and say that everybody in today's military was a killer was wrong, and I am sorry.

However, there are killers (wikpedia - A killer is a person, animal, object, plant, (etc.) that kills.) among the many other members of the military; I would venture to say there are at least a few who are proud of that fact.

My problem lies more in the idea that a 18 year old boy, with minimal Psychological training is sent to war, then sent back home and is expected to function again as a normal, human being who uses violence as a last resort or none at all. The 17-21 year old range is where people are most impressionable, and in that I can see why so many Nam vets had problems adjusting to normal society again.

My problems also stem from the rising militarism sentiment in this country. It is like people are forgetting that violence should only be used as an absolute last resort. Was that the case with this last conflict? I feel, IMO, that this stems from the violence, and acceptance thereof, that we as Americans are flooded with every day in TV, movies and video games. Respect and thank those that kill in the name of freedom, or the US, or democracy, or whatever, but do not glorify it. It is still a horrible act to have to commit.

Knight – good to see ya. I would not classify cops as killers. Again, there are a few who have killed, however the basic definition of a police force varies greatly from that of a military.

Wikipedia - While military can refer to any armed force, it generally refers to a permanent, professional force of soldiers or guerrillas—trained exclusively for the purpose of warfare

Wikipedia - Police are the enforcers of the state, with the responsibility of maintaining "law" and order (law enforcement)

To me those are two very different defenitions, with two very different core meanings. Trained exclusively for warfare, vs. the responsibility of maintaining law and order.

Also, knowing me better than anyone else here, you know that I sometimes argue, strictly in a vane attempt to make apoint that very few people will ever see. Differing opinions cause thought and progress, thinking the exact same would have never gotten us past the days of the world is flat, and the center of the universe. In conversation we do little but learn; in agreement we do little and accomplish nothing.

We can’t fish Barker in the winter, ice fishing is prohibited due to falling water levels, fucking Boulderites. I am more than willing to get out to your area if you know of a few good spots, my ice fishing experience is minimal. Georgetown Lake after some ice racing would be cool.

Edited to correct a wrong word and a few spelling mistakes.

Teryall or Jefferson could work.
Good point on police military differences. However, killing is killing, correct? Is the physcological effect different for the soldier or cop?

I really did not intend it as a loaded Q.....more just a discussion about philosophies, as that subject intrigues me......why folks develop differing mentalities about subjects. So I wanted to really just discuss what your ideas are on the subject in a way that I can understand.

I tend to be, as I get older, more conservative in my mentality. So, I regard the military as a necessary force. Do I always agree with its mobilization?....No. But, I regard the members of it with respect.....just as any other worker.....for doing what they have been ordered to do.

I apologize if you think my questions were loaded or leading....They were not intended that way. They were really just intended to let me see and hear your point of view.

And with the above post, you opinion is more clearly exhibited to me. And whether or not I completely agree with it, I can respect it as your mindset.

Branden....

You are now doing a lot of back peddling and using definitions to try and obfuscate your original statements. It's not working. Maybe you should have used the John Kerry excuse claiming your statements were "botched jokes".

You mentioned Viet Nam vets having trouble adjusting to society. You know why they had trouble? It was because of people like you. It was people labeling them as cold blooded killers and murderers. It was people like John Kerry and those with his destructive mindset.



On a side note.... It appears the NY Times (The Democrat Party paper of record) is admitting that Saddam and Iraq may have been months or a year away from developing a nuclear weapon.

Maybe John Kerry was right when he claimed for years that Iraq was a threat.

But, that was before 2003 when he and all the other Democrats who had been screaming for years that Iraq was a threat, flip flopped.

Branden was for the botched joke before he was against it.

"All is well...and all will be well...in the garden."

All it comes down to is to tell a decent joke, you need to have a sense of humor. Branden and John Kerry have both shown that neither of them have a sense of humor, hence the botched joke.

Red - the subject of how we all develop our beliefs is an interesting one, and I appreciate the kind words and understanding.

Couldn't agree more.

As I get older I hope to cling to my pacifist beliefs, but who knows the way this world is headed.

Knight - killing is killing, and the effects on the men and women are probably the same. Cops recieve extensive time with pychiatrists to help work out the devestating effect it has on nearly everyone, I don't believe soldiers get the same benefits, although I may be wrong about that.

Madman - I have no respect for you, or anything you say. People like you (Bush, Rummy and Cheney come to mind) make me sick to my stomach. While Red and I can at least see eye to eye (we may not agree, but at least we understand where we are coming from), you will never see another point of view, never able to listen and learn.

I am not back peddling, I am apologizing for words I said were wrong. People like you (again the big three come to mind) will never admit fault, will never admit when emotions might have gotten the best of you. You got me to say exactly what you wanted, I fell into your little perverted trap.

Someday when that heart attack kills you, people from my generation will be running this country. Up until that point if we continue to have leaders like you blindly pushing down the gauntlet to war, things will change, and possibly my pacifist views will become more common.

Someday it is my dream that peace will break out, and war will be viewed as what it is -barbaric, and a thing of the past. You will never let that happen. You are too blood-thirsty, and too angry. You are the reason why peace has no chance; we will never recover from the damage done by your beloved republican leaders.

You disgust me madman, everything about you and everything you say. From defending the pedophile Foley to this conversation you do nothing/say nothing that is ever going to help this great nation. You are leading us in the wrong direction, and because you have no sense of right and wrong, you can never admit guilt or fault. Since you can never listen to new ideas, you will never get any. Since you can not fathom love and peace, and only know hatred and intolerance, you can not understand why I fight so hard against wars. You know nothing but misery.

Have a good day madman, go home have a beer, by yourself. I am conviced you have no family, and probably no friends. Anyone with your kind of attitude is destined to die alone. While that thought saddens me, I can't do anything to help; I really wish I could.

LOL...while I agree that he's a sorry bastard and a lame excuse for a human being, I didn't know he defended Foley. Doesn't surprise me...what a sicko.

That's all I'm gonna say in this thread, I'm not going to fall for one of his dumb arguments again. He has zero logic and it's like talking to a wall. He'll blatantly say things similar to "2+2 does not equal 4, they equal half of 8...so...you have no idea what you're talking about. Go Bush!"

Plus, he doesn't know the difference between "you're" and "your." Bahahah

Hey Branden....

Enough of your bullshit. Your excuses are beyond lame.

Now in your twisted mind, what you said is MY fault. The problem with people like you is you never take responsiblity for anything you say or do. Everything is always someone else's fault.

You are also a liar claiming I defended the sexual deviant Foley. I never defended that scum. The only thing I did was correct the way people on the left tried to paint the entire issue.

It is people of your political persuasion who support and protect people like Foley. If people like you had your way, every Boy Scout Troop would have a guy like Foley as Scoutmaster.

If anyone on this board has a misguided sense of right and wrong, you are clearly the guilty party.

I couldn't care less what you think of me. You are a despicable and pitiful little man who has an overinflated sense of self because you went to a mining school and sometimes the adult males let you wear a hardhat. You are an even more pitiful puke for blaming me for what you said like it was some kind of a trap. Poor baby. Now you are crying victim.

Grow up Branden.

Well said, Macaca.

Originally posted by NY:
Posted by me:
With regards to this, originally posted by NY:
I give you this:

Madman, maybe I do need to grow up. But if I grow up into something like you, I'll throw myself down the mine shaft. I just thought of another thing worth dying for - not becoming a cold-hearted, war mongering, lying, douche-bag like NY Madman.

I see you want to take this thread down to the gutter and do nothing but throw insults back and forth. Yeah, we can do that. Is that what you really want?

I'm not a war monger and I haven't lied about anything. Prove where I've lied about anything.

Branden you are a stupid ignorant fuck. Have you even seen the latest ROE that we have to follow? It's 28 pages long and I'll give you a hint, it doesn't say kill anything that is not friendly forces. You're in Colorado. I invite you to come down to the Fort Carson welcome center and tell one of the returning troops, especially one that actually had to kill an insurgent to defend themselves "welcome back killer". In fact I'll be coming back in about a week. See you there.

Axle

Wow! Roosevelt must have really hated the troops. I mean after all, he killed over 250,000 of em! In a shorter period of time. He showed particular hatred for them on June 6th, he killed 1465 in about 6 hours. What a monster he was! Truman was worse! He killed 12,500 at the Battle Of Okinawa. Its amazing!!That was in just 4 months!!! :rolleyes:

Johnson and Kennedy also really hated the troops too, killing almost 50,000, many with thier bare hands! Those monsters!!!!

Dont even get me started on Woodrow Wilson, or Abraham Lincoln. Thier hatred of the troops was almost pathological!!

18 year old "boys" might end up going to war, but they CHOOSE to enlist, there is no fucking draft so stfu

The one thing that gets me going is when some fuck stick starts bashing the military on national TV.

Oh but what Karrey (oops im not too smart since im in the Army) has three purple hearts.....in three months......two of them from self inflicted wounds....can we say fraging!!!!????

Axle...glad to hear your coming home safe and yeah that ROE is rather lengthy...nuff said!!!!!

Tim

PS-"Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood."
George S. Patton

I would love to see that ass-stomping! WOW, can you believe that, I am only a Chief in the Navy and I spelt all of my words right....Maybe I am not as dumb as John Kerry would say I am. Well, on second thought, I am not Branden, so maybe I am dumb.

Welcome back Axle, here is an internet beer from me to you.

See him there? Does that mean you're going to come back from upstanding service to your country, claiming to have intelligence, morals, and values, only to off handedly threaten to kick someone's ass because of a remark he made to you on an internet fucking message board?

The only thing you're doing with that remark, whether made out of anger, frustration, or not, is sinking to the level you "claim" Kerry put you at...which is uneducated and immoral. Don't live down to it, rise above it. I'm a veteran of the "first" Gulf War, and I gotta tell ya, that's pretty fucking disheartening.

The only people that will get mad at what Kerry said are the truly uneducated soldiers in Iraq. If you're truly intelligent and can learn to let the bullshit lay where it is, then you'll disregard his comment (no matter what context it's in), and realize that you've done your job, served your country, and that's it. I was in a mortars battalion, so I know I got at least one or two of those cocksuckers...so as far as having to kill one of those "insurgents" to defend myself? Call me a "killer"...all I'd say is "just doing my job, just what the military and my Commander in Chief paid me to do"

But passively aggressively threaten to kick Branden's ass? Come on man, that's just bullshit. You're a soldier brother, act like one and rise above the off handed bullshit remarks.

Gosh, where to start? I got back from my third deployment to the middle east about a week ago. I've never killed anyone that I know of(I'm a nurse so that would be bad). I like to hunt, so I'm definately a killer by Brandon's definition, but not in connection with the military.

I have 168 hours of college, attended a trade school for mechanics for a year, completed nursing school(not included in the college time listed above)and trained as an aircraft mechanic for 1 1/2 years (didn't get A&P due to deployment). I'd never state that I was intelligent, but other people tell me that I am all of the time.

I was making $60,000 a year when I came back on active duty in '94. probably not much money to those on this board, but it was good money in Louisiana in '94. I came back for many reasons, but mostly because I idolized my father. He is a true patriot and raised me to feel the same way.

I know Axel and think he's a great guy. There is no veiled threat there since Brandon is a talker and Axel knows that Brandon will never show up to call him a killer. If Brandon did show up and utter those words, Axel would tell him that he is welcome. Axel and I and every service member that has served does it just so we and our families can someday enjoy the very freedom that Brandon takes for granted. Brandon is a parasite. He enjoys those freedoms without paying for them. Hell, he abuses them without paying for them. Those that don't know how precious they are, since they think they come without a price, are sometimes very quick to abuse them.

Where to start?

Axel, welcome home. I would rather see you at home, safe with your family, living the good life here in CO, than anywhere else in this world.

What part of pacifist do you guys not understand? Have you ever read a post by me before with regards to war and death?

Axle, let me ask you point blank, and anyone else here who is currently in the service if they have ever met a soldier that was proud of having to take a life (someone like say a pilot with a number of kills displayed on the cockpit). Does that make them, in your eyes only, a killer? If not, how would you describe that person?

Listen guys, and listen hard cause this was a main theme to all my ramblings before this - Why should I respect those of you in the service any more than the people I listed above? This is not a rhetorical question, I would like an answer.

Edited to fix axel's name. sorry.

If you have to ask, it's not worth typing an answer.

Ask the Jews what Pacifism has done for them lately.

Good luck in life, seems like you need it.

Glad to have you guys back. Hope you get to stay a while, but my Brother-in-law is now on a 3 month rotation in Iraq. The good news is that he is about to retire, if the Army can let him go.

Brandon,
Does evil exist? If you believe that evil does not exist this thread can end. But if evil does exist, can you negotiate with evil? Can you contain evil? Can you just ignore evil?

There are people out there that want to convert us to their perverted version of Islam or kill us - period. They are brought up from a very young age to hate America and what we stand for.

I do not want my leaders to negotiate with these people for peace. In the past they have proven themselves to use that time to prepare for additional attacks and brainwash some more kids for the future.

A clear example is the Hamas attacks on Israel in the past six months. Israel moves out of Lebanon and what happens? Israel is left unprotected, tunnels are dug to move arms and and terrorists, soldiers get kidnapped and hundreds of rockets are fired at random into Israel.

Sure, Israel pushed back, but then a cease-fire came along - with demands for Israel to get out of Lebanon and stop their violence!

So those negotiations resulted in what? As far as I know - the Israeli hostages have not been returned. Israel leaves, Hamas celebrates and starts building up for the next attack. It will happen and continue to happen until the terrorists are dealt with - gone.

If you think that this is a "war" that can be fought with troops then you got another thing coming. Terrorism is a global threat, you can not draw up frontiers adn fight a conventioanl war.

I have the outmost respect and admiration for the people who are following orders, putting their lives on the line for this cause, I also believe that the war in Iraq will only fuel the call to arms by the Islamic fanatics, be a recruiting poster. Again you can not win the "war" on Terror, you can contain it. We need far more freedom for western countries to act like recently seen in pakistan, surgical strikes based on intel. Assaination of key people. STRONG preservation of our borders. A global strategy for identification of ANY person who want's the freedom of movement (read travel), beyond a passport (which can be forged). Countries who allow and harbor terrorists should be isolated in every whch way (trade, travel etc).

Finally I believe that we need to create a Global policeforce that has the power to move and investigate with umlimited access to records intel etc.

We can not continue to attempt to convert countries to Democracy who still live a century behind us. it simply will not work. Afghanistan, Iraq. are prime examples

Claus,
I forgive you about the "phat chick fridays". Gosh, that took me a long time to say. :p

Anyway. I do agree with you on some points, but I do not believe that you can contain evil, I think we need to go out and crush evil. How to do that? I do not have the answer, but a global police force is not the answer - who would they be responsible to? Who would prevent them from distributing (selling) classified information that would leave the USA vulnerable? Look at all of the issues with "UN" troops currently deployed.

I've got no issues with targeted strikes, but they need to be effective.

Personally, I think we have been running a "PC war", and we don't have the will to go out there and win. People think that we need to be "fair" in a battle situation, but I think that is crazy.

Perfect example was somone pulling the plug on nailing all of those terrorists seen at a funeral because it was in a cemetary. Or any number of examples of not attacking a Mosque - as terrorists use the grounds and building to train terrorists and stockpile weapons.

Rules of engagement seem a bit out-of-whack for me right now.

thank you i feel so much better.

My Idea contains no rules of engagement.you see em you kill em. The western Civilized world would be commited to the "multi national strike force". I lie what they did in Pakistan, my heart goes out to the "innocent" casualties but as it is with any conflict shit happens and it is to be expected. Tighten the noose, let anyone who does not want to play ball feel so isolated that they eventually might just pack it in.

You like Pakistan and what it is doing?

They made a truce with the warlords in the Western regions who are protecting Taliban and Al Qaeda.

They also recently released 2500 of the worst terrorists from their jails.

Their security agency, the ISI, is riddled with Islamic radicals. Pervez Musharraf is barely hanging on by a hair.

There is not a whole lot to like about Pakistan.

I also think your idea about a supra-national police force is very bad Claus.

Clicky

I'm aware of that bombing Claus.

In the overall picture of things and what Pakistan does to enable and help Islamic terrorism, it means very little.

You seem to be satisfied with a crumb from Pakistan when they can be giving us an entire cake.

What i was implying by extracting pakistan was that I like the idea of hitting a Bee's nest before the fuckers can fly. Pakistan is the armpit of the world, the Government is curroupt and has no credibility what so ever. I am also certain that that Air Strike was not the work of the Paki's but a little CIA finesse....

Conundrum - No, I will not except that answer.

I want to know why soldiers should be treated any differently than the average worker in a hard, dirty, dangerous job with little pay. I will give the following examples of people in America that work to give us all the way of life we so treasure. Please answer, I want to know, and I will listen; my mind is open.

For example -
1,234 construction workers died in the private sector in 2004. Where were the parades for these brave men and women, where are the CNN segments thanking these people?

More than 1,000 people—including more than 100 highway workers—died in 2004 in roadway construction work zone accidents. Did you thank a highway worker when you saw one last?

45 coal miners have died this year to date to provide you with the power you recieve when switch that light on. Do you think of that when you last turned on a light, or your computer?

Bottom line - soldiers have a tough job, but so do a lot of unamed workers that few people if any think about. I'll say it again, I respect soldiers, but no more than any of the workers posted above.

So conudrum, please explain why the people listed above do not deserve the same level of respect as the average US soldier.

Steve - yes evil does exist. Yes, you can negotiate with evil, to an extent (Churchill circa late 1930's and Rummy circa mid 1980s). Yes, you can contain evil (please see Iraq and Iran, before this current war) And yes, you can ignore evil (please see Iran and N. Korea now).

What to do about the current problems of N. Korea and Iran - I don't know (here comes madman w/ his "thats so typical of you left wingers"), but honestly have we really given any thought to this? Lets sit down and figure it out, cause at least someone will agree that war is not always the answer.

It's accept you pompous little piece of shit.

I guess you don't have a choice, but let me indulge you slightly.

I get up everyday, know where I am, know where I'll be sleeping. Know that I can eat 3 squares a day. Know that I can sit around and do nothing if I choose. Know that I'll make it home safely to my Wife and Child. Know that I can go off-roading with some buddies next weekend. Etc....

Military life: None of the above applies, yah, you'll be getting up, but you won't know if you're even going to get to go to the bathroom let alone know that you're going to get even one good meal. Top it off with you don't know if your Countrymen despise you or are cheering for you. You don't know if you'll even make it through the day without getting hit by an IED or sniper as CNN has proudly displayed.

So answer in a nutshell, you don't know what you're talking about and comparing apples to oranges is just stupid (Kerryeske) and really deserves no comment.

Enjoy your freedom, someone died for it.

Thanks Dan, I needed that today.

Enjoy your electricity, someone died for it.

Edited cause I want to keep it simple.

No I want some more.

Everyday the men and women of the WV coal mines get up and go to work. Thankfully, they don't have to ask anyone to take a piss; however, they don't know if they are gunna get blown up, have a fifty ton rock fall on thier head, get their heads torn off by a mucker, get ripped in half by a slusher, fall into an ore shoot, get run over by a continuous miner, get torn up by a longwall shearer, drown in a flood, die from lack of O2, burned alive.... the list goes on.

Your disrespect makes me as mad at you as you are at me. You are as disconnected from reality as me. You are the type of person that thinks a steak comes from Safeway and light from the light switch. You are the type of person that says, "well mining doesn't effect me."

Think about it, all these people "fight" to allow us to live the way we do. If they stopped going to work, tens of thousands of people or more would die very quickly, in the first few days. In the weeks following that hundreds of thousands more would die - from starvation, dehydration, lack of medical care, lack of an ability to go anywhere or do anything. All progress, all life in the US would come to a screeching halt, quickly.

You call me arrogant, you call me pompous. Look at yourselves. You can't make an arguement because you couldn't dare to extend any kind of respect to the lowly worker. You couldn't even acknolwedge the sacrafices they make everyday. More than 1000 construction workers and you couldn't even say a word to that.

The real funny part is you probably think the average mine worker is too dumb to find a job anywhere else. That is not the case, most love what they do. Most have lost co-workers, friends, and family members to work related accidents.

Ok now im pissed!!!!!!!

Branden the only reason you can say the rhetoric that spills out of your mouth is because a soldier died for that right.

A soldier is a volunteer and we know full well the ramifications of our profession. We dont want to go to war anymore than you want us to so let me ask you this....why did you send us?????

Im assuming that you vote (and if not then just STFU now) and last time I checked not too many people seemed to argue with going to war....in fact the vote was 296-133 in the house and 77-23 in the senate. Compare that to the 91 war in which it was 250-183 and 52-47 so obviously some people thought it was important and vital to our national interest. Maybe you should speak to your congressman or move to Massachusetts and talk with old Ted and John.

Trust me there is much more information than meets the eye that you will never see its called "asset protection and preservation." This could be HUMINT, SIGINT, EINT etc. And that is why we did and do what we do. Like the old saying goes, "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." (I think it was George Orwell who said that.)

There are roughtly 140,000 US Soldiers in Iraq now. Attempting to establish a functioning democracy in a country that has had terrible hardship. They might be heading towards a civil war but we had one to and actually the CSA was in talks with the British Empire for assistance and we are helping the pro democracy Iraqis.

Dont worry about Korea. The goal of the NK's is re-unification of the two Koreas. They will not nuke the south for that reason and also since Americans would be killed and it is the Presidential policy of the United States to retaliate with a full nuclear strike should our forces be slimmed or nuked. The real threat is to Japan so they will not enter on the Souths side but that is why they use the PATRIOT system which despite what you read....it works...very well!!!

So in closing let me say that you may belive whatever you want...please do that is why one of my best friends died so that you could do that and so that the Iraqis can too. Until you fold the flag of a young man killed in Iraq to the tune of taps, hand that flag to his mother, say those 45 words (if you have never heard them I pray you never will) and salute her all while holding back your own tears then you have no right to speak on such topics.

So simply put....a soldier does for an ideal....a noble quest.....the preservation and spreading of what we call democracy....we are the only country who sends citizens to their deaths not for riches....power....or land...but for an ideal. God Bless the USA.

Tim

PS- Freedom isnt free ask 1,190,262 dead heroes!!!

Where do you people get off thinking I like to see soldiers die?

It saddens me as much as the next person. I wouldn't be holding back tears, I would be balling outright. The news of each death stabs me just as deep as you. I think about thier families, the knock on the door that changes thier lives, and I am as emotional as the next person. I just don't see the difference between thier deaths and the deaths of the two coal miners that happened in the last 3 days. Thier families also got a knock on the door that will change thier lives forever.

I want our troops home, safe and with thier families. I don't want them in harms way. I want no more troops to have to make that sacrafice. I want peace.

In 2005, 43,443 people were killed in motor vehicle traffic crashes, 2,699,000 people were injured. That's only one year and that's after a large reduction in the number per year and it's only in the United States. If you are so concerned about human life why don't you work to reduce those deaths and injuries? I don't think military jobs are more dangerous than some civillian jobs. I respect the motive behind the job, not just its danger level. Jobs that protect others by risking your own are at the top of my list, then jobs that save lives, then service industry jobs, then at the bottom there are mining engineers;) Just joking, mining engineers aren't on my list of jobs I respect. Probably because I never gave it much thought before. It is definately an under appreciated field. I don't think that you are going to win the respect you feel you deserve by putting down those that you feel earn more respect undeservingly.

I understand your ire. You dug some pretty nice holes that helped our economy and here are all these people you consider killers getting the free beer and slaps on the back. Pretty unfair if you don't pay attention to the fact that I had to do without beer or sex for a year. I couldn't even watch videos or read magazines that depicted sex.

If you can go the next year without drinking alcohol or having sex or looking at porn, I will vote for the democrat of your choice in the next presidential election. I don't have to worry about it though, because even though you will have all the other comforts of civilized living that I didn't have, you don't have what it takes to give those three items up for a year.

My friend....that is why you will never understand what we do and why we do it, but your welcome!!!

Tim

Bullshit....

Explain yourself????

Tim

Just in case you cant think of anything let me help.

The Revolutionary War- The free ourselves from the oppresive rule of the british crown.

The Mexican American War- The American annexation of Texas whose independence the Mexican had never fully accepted made war with Mexico inevitable. When the Mexicans refused to meet with a US envoy sent to negotiate a settlement of outstanding issues, President Polk ordered American forces to maneuver close to the Mexican border in disputed territory. The Mexicans attacked and the war was on.

The War of 1812- Revolution Part II

The Spainsh American War- The long going revolution in Cuba against Spanish rule had long been a source of friction between the United States and Spain. The American people had long supported the goal of the rebels, and Spanish actions against the rebels.

World War I- Basically to bail the French and British out and stop the spread of the Prussian Empire in conjunction with the Ottoman Turks.

World War II- Pearl Harbor and Adolf Hitler.

Korean Conflict- Never an actual war but to preserve democracy on the korean penninsula from communist invasion.

Vietnam- Same as Korea stop or slow the spread of communism.

Grenada- To liberate the island from communist backed rebels and soldiers from Cuba.

Panama- To dispose the corrupt and abusive government of Manuel Noreaga (SP Sorry)

Desert Storm- To liberate the nation of Kuwait from Iraqi invaders.

Bosnia- To help stop the murder of millions of innocents.

OEF/OIF- September 11th and to dispose the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein.

Tim

Now onto the fun stuff.

Ancient Warfare- Athens, Sparta, Carthage, Rome, Mongols, Chinese, etc...money, wealth, power, land and prestige.

Medievil Warfare- Mainly based on European and Oriental ideals of fuedalism which stemmed from the King wanting the same as above.

The New World- Destruction of the Inca and Aztec Empires along with others and killing of untolds people...why...Gold, riches...the same as above.

The British Empire- Boer Wars trying to expand their empire in fact concentration camps were used in the second Boer war but were first used by the Spanish.

Germany- World War I and World War II both land and the expansion of the empires and the political leaders they reprsented.

So you see there really arent too many examples of a nation fighting to help and protect others the way our nation does it. Believe what you will about oil and such but as the saying goes "we dont start em, we finish em."

Tim

I was in no way threatening Branden, I was just trying to see if he will step up to the plate and tell someone what he really thinks of them or is he just all talk. What some others may do though is beyond my control.

And Branden, I appreciate those that provide for us all of the things day to day that we take for granted i.e. farmers, miners, refinery workers, etc. However those people can seriously reduce their chances of injury or death through safety precautions. While soldiers can to an extent having someone shooting at you and trying to blow you up is always going to be inherantly more dangerous than any other job. Plus as Randall said, we do this for a year at a time without our family to come home to at night.

Come on down to Carson, I'll be there on the 11th (hopefully). My wife is taking me to Hooters for lunch. Come with us and have a few beers, we'll talk things out.

Axle

I got the Wife of My former Platoon Sgt who is trying to explain to her 6 year old son why her dad is not returning from Afghanistan (was killed early last year along with 3 German Soldiers trying to defuse a IED) he was from Denmark.

I have 600 Danish Soliders in Iraq who are getting shot at as much as ANY American Soldier who would say Bullshit to your comment also. Want me to go on?.

Not Saying the US has not paid a price or are fighting for an ideal, but you can by no means claim you are the only one

Gimme the address and when you are gonna be there, I will call and pay for a Pitcher

We are just the ones that lead the pack and bear the brunt of the suck!

Tim

Branden...............

You are not worth defending. There are many Americans not worth defending. I defended an American Idea. That of freedom. Many have died as a result of trying to protect this idea. And its exercise. In my world you would not vote until you had contributed to the defense of this country. The Soldier or Sailor only go where they are sent by OUR government. You would bring them home. Bully for you ! You pacifist twit. You would never commit troops to battle (for any idea! or value!). And when we were under the control of the next world threat you could marvel at the peace WE were living under. I encourage you to move to a country elsewhere in the world. Maybe to Europe.They have miners there to. Maybe they could pay you the same wage as the miners to make you happy.

So bringing our troops home will bring peace? I don't think so. You should be praying to whatever god you pray to that the troops are fighting the terrorist in Iraq and not in downtown Nederland, CO. We fight in Iraq so we do not have to fight in the US. Cut and run like you seem to want to do will only weaken America and open ourselves up for more attacks on our soil. The "sacrafice" that you seem to preach about and know so much about keeps you safe at night in your little lollipop world that you live in. I agree that the administration made many mistakes,and in general has pretty much sucked (insert illegal immigrants here) but we have to finish the job, let the soldiers fight with both arms and not one tied behind there backs that the media and the far-left wing of our government is hell bent to tie. I am glad that you have your freedom to say whatever comes out of your clouded mind (insert coal dust here) and I am glad that we can argue this in a somewhat decent manner, but honestly Branden, you really have no clue what our troops are made of and what they are capable of. I really hope that you meet Axle at Hooters and buy him a beer. He deserves one from you.