Can anybody find the full text of Kerry's speech? I can't. What I do find, does not lead me to believe he was making a joke directly at Bush, but at the military in general.

The way I interpret what he said, based on the quotes I can find, it sounds like he is saying.

"If you don't study hard, your only option will be to go into the military, and you'll end up in Iraq". Which to me equals, only under achievers and the uneducated are in the military because that's all they can do.

I mean how can he be referring to Bush when Bush graduated Yale? I mean, I don't really like the guy myself, but he's hardly uneducated.

John Kerry graduated Yale two years before George Bush and with lower grades.

Kerry graduated with a "D" average.

How so? How are you measuring achievement? Sounds very material based to me? I mean, my dad never even finished high school, and is a retired mechanic. He's a saint to me and my family. He was the only bread winner with a wife and two kids, has never done us wrong, has never lead me astray, has never let me down. He's fucking perfect in my eyes. I can only hope I end up half the man he is. Yet according to you he hasn't "achieved" nearly as much as someone who has finished fucking college?

Samuel, we are very close. Maybe I have been at it longer? I have since updated my last post to include that my wife and I are very well off. I guess degrees aren't the only part of an education...

Granted, we my wife and I weren't always in good shape. Had to cash out a nice 401K when I was laid off several years ago just to get by, and sold off a lot of stuff (my beloved Jeep) etc. but we have since with a lot of hard work gotten back on are feet and are making a great comeback!

And after saying this, you still think Kerry is the man to throw your support behind? Does this not apply to the President, or is he open game because you despise the little redneck from Texas that keeps beating you? Lost in all this is that this man who wants to be President has done nothing but insult and undermine the man who beat him, instead of working to show us why he would have been the better choice. I have to admit in '04 I voted for Bush, but only because I felt he was a known quantity. I just didn't trust Kerry, and now I am glad I voted the way I did. I would hate to see what this peron would do as President.

Are Kerry's words and actions the values you look up to and aspire to emulate?

Imagine that...hard work and your life is improving. Who would have thought?

Good job on the comeback, Sam...

NJ - Yes, your challenge was intelligence, however that is impossible to compare, because as NY stated nobody believes anybody else anyway. You have an education, you have continued education, you have a strong family, and you are probably a nice guy, a good person. I don't hold your political beliefs against you, do you do the same with me?

And NY, believe it or not I did do 1 year in ROTC. As stated I lost my nomination to the academies because of the injury and needed help financially. I got various other scholarships and loans to pay when I decided to get out.

I do accuse soldiers of being killers, it is what they do for a living. The Army is there to kill people, pure and simple. And yes, innocents are killed as well. Does that make all soldiers bad, no, but it does raise the question of the morality of that job. I for one do not any longer want to kill people for a living, I want to help people live a better life.

I will never insult a soldier personally, I will never spit on a soldier in an airport. I just feel bad for someone whos proffesion is the destruction of human life, or the aiding of the destruction of human life. I will tell them exactly what I said above, but I do not consider that an insult, I consider that a reality.

Do you, NY, like the idea of killing people? Do you like seeing bodies of innocent Iraqis strewn about a killing field that our boys brought about in the name of democaracy and the US. It deeply disturbs me, but I bet it gives you a nice big hard on.

Edit to add - I never stated I liked Kerry at all.

Oh my god..... I don't even know how to respond to this. You are so woefully ignorant of our military and the soldiers life it leaves me speechless.

Please just stop....... not only are we all uneducated, but we are also by definition "killers" too.... wow... just wow....

Samuel, what does the US military today do? Why do we have a military if not to kill people? Yes it is the most basic arguement you can make, perhaps even a little bottom rung, but breaking the military down, it's sole purpose today is to kill people. Period. Sounds pretty bad, but it is the truth.

Please repond with a differing opinion, please fight for what you believe. Please help me understand what the main function of a military is, cause I guess I don't get it (and please don't try the "but it will save lives in the long run arguement", I don't buy it - how many lives did we save by rushing into Nam?)

[ way way WAY off topic ]

Jersey/Samueul -

I'm not a network guy (I write software) but my experience in the tech industry has shown that a disproportionate number of the skilled engineers I've worked with have not had a college degree. There's just something about this industry that draws creative, hard-working people, degree or not. When it comes to hiring people I look at personality first, experience second, and then at some point I might glance at a candidate's education. It's really not that important, as our industry moves so fast that what you learned in college was obsolete the day you graduated. I suspect it is like that in a lot of fields, but in tech it's pretty obvious when someone is falling behind the curve. It seems that a lot of the grads I've worked with have a reluctance to learn new ideas or new languages. I don't have a degree, but if I did I'd understand where they are coming from. No one wants to spend 4 years and an assload of money only to find that in the real world you can compress that 4 years into about 1 year of hard work in this industry. I'm 28, I have no degree, I earn a great living and I co-own my own software company. Shit, it's not like I'm mowing lawns anymore, I worked my ass off to get here and I'm not taking it for granted!
[ / way way WAY off topic ]

Our military is a cohesive force designed to protect our interests, land, and people. Are members of the Coast Guard killers? They are a part of our military you know.

There are thousands of people in the military that only once a year even shoot a rifle let alone ever see a battlefield. The military is a mini-society all to itself, made up of doctors, lawyers, mechanics, food service personnel etc.

Everyone is a soldier yes. Everyone goes through basic training, learns basic tactics, learns the basics of "war" but then many go to advanced training and become something else entirely, like I said above, and have served their entire lives up to retirement without actually raising up arms against another human being. Is the potential there to take part in conflict and kill another human being? Yes it is. It's there if you are a cop too. Are all cops killers? Do all cops join the force specifically to kill another human being? Are all cops uneducated too?

Yep, I was really killing a lot of people that time I was detailed to fly food, water, and mail down to Florida after Hurricane Andrew hit. Yep, killed me a lot folks. I was US Army, 82nd Airborne at the time....

You're an idiot.

What a fucking twisted asshole you are.

I think terrorists should be killed. They want to kill me, my country, my fellow countryman and everyone else around the world who does not conform to their political and ideological zealotry.

They even want to kill you. Regardless of the fact that that particular endeavor might actually have a positive effect on our society, I would still support killing them before they actually killed you.

Sometimes in military engagements some innocent people do get killed. That doesn't mean you disavow use of military force. It also doesn't mean killing of innocents is an intentional aggression on our part as your sick, twisted mind is claiming.

You're a sick, twisted fuck Branden.

Sitting in a classroom for four years educating yourself on the mathematical formulas for the expansion rate of a methane fart inside a mine shaft has done absolutely nothing at all to increase your mental capacity. It may have even retarded it.

You're right, Couldn't make it past the first paragraph!

You like to critize Bush, a Yale Graduate, and call him Dumb, linking the rest of us to him as being tools. You take him literally regardless of the intent of his words, but your own guy, take him for what he meant, not what he said. Doesn't sound right to me.

No one really cares what he said, those of us who know his record already knew how he thinks of the Military and that is why he lost in '04. Remeber he Personally testified before Congress that he was present and witnessed our troups committing hitrosities, yet he did nothing to stop or prevent it from happening again. He in effect condoned it and help perpetuate it, if in fact it was happening at all.

You forgot he personally killed all the civilians that have died since the illegal Iraq war began. :rolleyes:

Oh, Brother! He must be like some kind of ghost or spirit, or maybe the Whitehouse has some kind of time warp machine to allow him to go and kill, beam back to Washington just in time to make the next Democrat Bashing Press Conference.

Funny what a loosing party will say about you.

Xterrapin/Burden in '08

3rd party politics. Ignocrats in '08.

I have a long family history of military service. The fact that you would even suggest my family is a bunch of killers is inconceivable.

Miner boy, get the fuck out of the U.S. you fucking dirtbag. You don't belong here. France...yeah...France would be a good goddamn place for you. You have the right to talk shit about those in government, but you have no right to accuse over 1 million American citizens of being just simple killers.

May a fucking mine collapse on your worthless ass.

Asshole.

Ok, I really try to stay away from political debates since mentally crossing from right to left and vice versa is practically impossible, but this particular quote just really got to me. The reason we have a military branch of government is for PROTECTION, not killing random people on a whim. It is as stupid an idea as saying the sole purpose of law enforcement is to kill people. Certainly, they have in the past and will continue to do so. My brother, aunt and uncle all served in the Army and never killed a single person. My grandfather served in the Korean War and honestly doesn't know if he killed anyone or not while shooting at the enemy to protect himself.

If, in the line of duty, a member of the military or law enforcement need to take a life to protect themselves and/or others, then I will support them and give them the benefit of the doubt. Yes, there are bad seeds in every job profession (remember when we thought Cathlolic priests were all OK guys). And of course the select bad few are the ones who make the news.

So please, try not to overgeneralize any job profession, especially those who risk their lives every day to protect yours.

When I started in this field, College didn't really offer anything on the network infrastructure side of things. College touched on it, but mostly all the course work was software related (programming languages, database, etc.). Certifications were where it was at for actual networking. For me it was Banyan Vines, Unix, and Novell Netware, which ultimately for me lead to Microsoft, Active Directory etc. I'm only now going back to finish, because my employer will pay for it, and it's something I never finished. I don't actually "need" a college degree, as I am well set in the field etc. Just finishing up unfinished business.

That got a rise out of NY.

Yes, the military has many other functions beyond the battlefield.

Yes, there are many people who never will fire a weapon on the battlefield. Yes, there are people sitting at computers everyday.

But, a military's job, in it's most basic, naked form is to kill people. If it is done to protect US citizens, does that somehow mask that fact?

How does the US military accomplish this? Not by giving terrorists hugs and kisses, but by killing them to stop them from killing me. We are mincing words, desert_rat just doesn't like the term killers - he can not face reality. No matter the reason, if you killed someone you are a killer. Dispute that.

I do believe that the military is a necessary evil, a lot like mining. We have to have mining, but that does not change the fact that it is, in reality, a business that rapes and pillages the mountainside. We do it the best we can, try to save the environment; the military does it the best they can, and tries to save innocent lives. The fact remains that both are businesses that we as a world probably wish we could do without.

And desert_rat, one day you may actually learn to read. Wishing the death of someone else, shows what kind of person you are. You are an angry and distusting excuse for a human being, but I would never wish you or any member of your family any harm. Some people just can't seem to be able to crawl out of those caves and stand upright. Some people still want to run around and fight and throw shit at each other because they can never grasp that which makes us different that the animals that came before us - compassion, understanding, and a want to change for the better. You, my freind, truly are a sad and sick individual who would like nothing more than the blood of anyone who dares to disagree with you.

If you would like a lesson in compassion, I have a bible - we can take a look and see how many times Jesus states that someone should be killed, or have a mine collapse on them.

Are you a Christian, desert_rat or a Muslim? You seem to embrace the teachings of the faith of Islam very well. Who are the terrorists again, peace lovers or cold hearted killers?

We are not mincing words here. You fail to understand the reason that our Military exists.

There are many instances where our military is used in a peaceful manner with no battle taking place, nobody getting killed, and no enemy to engage. You fail to realize that it isn't as cut and dry as you want to make it out to be.

There are countless missions going on everyday, peaceful missions that the military carries out for our country. When Hurricane Andrew hit florida as I have already mentioned, Many companies and contingents were deployed to assist with matters nowhere even close to combat related. As a member of the PA National Guard for 5 years, I was deployed almost every winter to help shovel snow off the freeways and to help clear accident scenes in winter time. Members of our military serve as protection for hundreds of foreign and domestic envoys. Once again. The Coast Guard is an example I already used, which you have failed to touch upon. There are entire brigades in the Army, squadrons in the airforce that have never seen battle. Ever. Yet because they are military they are killers? Their primary goal is to kill? You got it wrong man.

We have military posts all over the world that have never seen combat, have never engaged in any "killing". The 13th Airborne Corp was deployed in WWII and never saw combat, and was disbanded afterwards. Can you seriously call those soldiers killers?

You just don't get it. Yes if you kill someone you are a killer, but you cannot equate the entire military as one single individual and label that individual a killer.

Answer me this Branden. If you belong to a military unit, and that unit in it's entire existence has never engaged in actual combat or was responsible for killing anyone, could you lable any members of that unit a killer just because they belong to the military?

Watch that Bible Thumping, bud. You don't want to be guilty by association do you?

I know Desert_Rat and he is a stand up guy, you can type away and sit back, laughing at the disgusting and dispariging remarks you make just to get a rise out of us lowley folk.

In the end you are no different and your mind is already made up as is ours. What differentiates us is that we beleive in our cause and come up with real plans that you could care less about, except to insert your .02 to bring everyone down.

The US "Killers" will prevail, albeit not quickly or cleanly, but none of us ever thought that would be the case. We know this is a Generational War and a war between ideas (other than 'Cut and Run'). We just think (know) that ours are superior as has been proven in the past when the Electorate picks Republicans who Defend Rights, Fight for Liberty and Economic prosperity.

I hope Kerry runs in '08, that would guarantee another Republican President.

So if you say one stupid thing, does that make you an idiot?

2 Things here.

1. Those who live in glass houses should not cast stones. You throw the Bible at Desert_Rat because it suits your needs. How ironic that you yourself in this thread many times regarding the military and other members have gone against Jesus' own words in Luke 6:31 "Do to others as you would have them do to you." and then get upset when fire is returned. Funny thing about the Bible, it applies to all people, not just those who choose to take it out when it is convenient.

2. For someone who claims to be so educated and enlightened, you have shown nothing but close-mindedness when it comes to the sterotype of ignorant killers you apply to our military, and the teachings of the faith of Islam which you have projected onto Desert_Rat as being hateful and violent. Neither of which it sounds like you have any experience dealing with. Yet you repeatedly want to spew forth about how horrible and evil conservatives are.

Shame on you. Given the schooling you have achieved I would have mistaken you for an intelligent person. Maybe shame on me for being fooled by your facade.

Having read some of the newscasts surrounding this topic I draw this:

Kerry said what he did to point out that many US service men and women have little education and are in the forces as a way to make a living in leiu of other opportunities. Was the comment warranted?, Did Bush have to jump on it and make a big deal out of it offcourse he had..that is the beauty of politics. show me one politician 9other than the dude in Texas) who has not tried to further his own agenda by slamming the the opponent.

Iraq is a shithole, more so than when the coalition "liberated" them does that mean the Service men and women putting their lives on the line every minute of the day does not deserve the respect and admiration of the people who can afford to sit in their plush armchair and be keyboard machos? fuck yeah.

I see the war ending with the next election. No democracy but a few years of civil war untill the next dictator comes along and beats the people into submission is that a bad thing?. not if you look at the culture and history of the middle east, we can not force a western way of living on to a people that are still living in the middle ages. Terrorism can be contained not defeated.....

Samuel - you are correct, you argue very well. If I implied that all members of the military are killers, I am wrong. I am looking back now and trying to find where I said it, I don't think I did, but it certainly could be construed from my writings. If I implied that every member of the military, regardless of duty, is a killer I am wrong and apologize.

Not every member of the military is a killer, but you have admitted that some are. The term is a bit harsh, but I am sticking by it. Being a member of the military does not make you a killer, but killing somebody does. We both agree at least on this point.

I would disagree with conundrum when he said desert_rat is a stand up guy, he is an angry person that personally wished me harm. I would never do the same to anyone on this board. I find his blood-thirsty attitude to be disgusting, and extremely un-Christian. I hope desert_rat the best, that he calms down, and doesn’t suffer from that inevitable heart attack that will come his way if he doesn’t stop fuming. Peace, prosperity, and everybody living to be 100 and dying next to their loved one is what I wish to see; I don’t want anyone dying, be at the hands of a US soldier, or that of a terrorist. I am a peace activist, if that makes me a pussy (as I have been called before), so be it.

And Condundrum, you are right, we are same, and we both KNOW we are right. I just like expressing a differing opinion in a forum full of war mongers.