I grew up in Hazelwood, a subset of Pittsburgh, those of you in the area know that it's pretty much a "mixed" ghetto, though at one time during the height of the steel industry, it was a booming steelworker community. I went into the military for the GI Bill etc.. Served in Iraq the first time around and though I don't have an MBA, I am educated, (still going to school, and fully certified in my field) in a high tech field making over 70K in Pittsburgh, which isn't a bad salary at all. I owe a lot of it to my military service and if I had to do it all again, I wouldn't change a thing. I'm more a republican than not, and most of my friends are too. I don't know what it amounts too, but a good many of my friends have also served, and now have great civilian jobs.

If I was in Iraq right now, and some politician made the comment that Kerry made, I'd be pissed.

I find it hard that you believe either sides politicians have their kids in the fray? They are all slim when it comes to military service records, not just the Republicans, though I'd wager more republican's children have served than democrat. Wonder if there are any statistics out there in regards?

SE4X4...................

I don't give a shit for current Canadian politics because it is a discussion of who is more lefter....
(you) as a country have been a good ally in the past. But your government currently pretends to be a world (UN)government beleiver on most days.

How about I stay out of Canadian politics with it's communist/socialist overtones and confiscatory taxes. And you stay out of American politics where we are a recognized superpower. And shape the world on a global scale.

SE4X4: although I personally agree with most of what you're saying you should certainly expect to be blasted for saying them, especially in such a blunt manner, because you are not American. Having lived overseas for a LONG time I've learned that you need to be very tactful when entering into contentious political debates, or simply not take part at all. No doubt that folks in Canada know American politics very, very well. Yes, this "fuck off, you liberal foreigner" attitude is appalling. But honestly, you would get the similar response (from different folks) if you were spouting Bush-loving comments. I have a British colleague, an American resident for many years but not a US citizen, who is 100% Republican. Every time I hear him talk politics I get physically ill. But no, I don't say "fuck off, you British twat".

_Lazza

I'm Vewe Wucky I Wetired B4 i was stuk in Irak 2!

Semper Fi,
USMC Retired

Yeah, Bush loves the military. Thats why he's killed 2817 of em! :rolleyes:

Alright, time to jump in. Sorry for the length, but most people won't read the whole thing anyway.

Kerry's comment was nothing more than a misinterpreted joke. I guess people on the right just don't understand humor of any kind. When I first heard the entire quote, I understood what he meant. It was directed at Bush, pure and simple.

I love how NY wants to see "like Bush", or "the administration". I guess we have got to spell it out so simply for people like him, so there is no way to not understand. Or just make sure they listen to the entire thing, instead of just hearing the last part. Freudian slip, bullshit, more like selective hearing for the republicans, and a complete and total lack of a sense of humor.

I think SE is right on when he alluded to the sad story of the feeding frenzy for recruiters in poor areas. People join the military for a variety of reasons, but one of the biggest is because they have no other options. The military has been lowering requirements for service for years, how does that fit into the "well educated" category. While it is true that nearly 100% of the military at least have a high school education, a larger percentage of the general populace have at least some college.

In high school I was accepted to West Point and the Air Force Academy. During that year I broke my left hip playing soccer, and was unable to complete the physical requirements to attend. I joined ROTC at Mines, and was gone after a year. I went from ready for service to running away when I met the very people I would be working with. They were generally substandard students, who I thought would make piss-poor officers - I could tell some great stories about the CU women getting ready for commission.

A majority of people in the military are intelligent, and will recieve an education, but by no means is everyone serving today scholars. Many won't recieve any true education until they get out. After that many will, and have, gone on to great things, but ask them if they were ready for war as a 19 year old high school grad, and many will admit no.

Lastly, we are gunna be hiring an Iraqi War vet here at the mine. He is a great guy, intelligent, hard working, but not educated. He has no skills applicable to our trade, no college, no trade school. But we are gunna hire him anyway, train and educate him, and give him a career with a real potential to make a lot of money.

NY - how many vets have you helped out, given good jobs and education to?

Military recruiters are like cars salesmen. They have to be, and how is the military to blame because "poor people" have no other option but to join up. For many, they should be thankful that the military exists to help them get that needed leg up that they couldn't get in civilian life. I know I am. I would have never had the opportunity to go to college, or get trained in a high tech field if it wasn't for the military.

Military requirements for service elligibility have not been lowered by any means. Matter of fact they are higher now than they were 15 years ago when I was in service. Get your facts straight.

News for you man, NOBODY is ready for war at 19, or even 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 etc...

Just pointing that out....

Brandon, I feel for you. Truly I do. Do you always regurgitate everything CNN feeds you?

How educated is a person who is "gunna" hire a vet?
How "enlightened" are you that you think hiring a vet is like doing him a favor? Is it possible he doesn't have training or a formal education in your field? Sure. Does that make him dumb? No.

Small wonder you stand up for Kerry, you seem stuck in the same elitist mind frame he is. Until He and others like him understand that the Military and those who serve in it are not the welfare leper colony they portray them as, there will always be this issue. The left hates the military, plain and simple.

I already mentioned that both parties do this, but the republicans should really put their sons and daughters where THEIR mouth is.

How smug can one be? Actually I don't really give a shit what politics you play in your back yard, it's when you start trumpeting around how you are a world superpower and shape the world that I think it is not wrong for the world to at least give you a piece of its mind.

To answer another question; I certainly expect to get blasted by small minded individuals that have no capacity past to think anything but 'republican - good; everyone else - baaaad'.
However, I think I have stayed fair and have not said anything nasty about anyone in particlular.

edited to add:
Oh Man, I cannot believe I forgot to express my support for the troops again...
go troops, go... hurrah troops. You can do it!
Uncle says 'have you supported the troops lately...?'

Did you read my reply? If me and most of my friends are Republicans and we served, or are serving, what does that tell you?

Did you read where I said that any politician is probably not going to let there children go into the military? They are all slime in this respect, but if we could find stats on it, I bet we'd find more republican politicians family members served over democrats.

This is actually a great point, well said.

As for your comments jerseydevil, sometimes I don't always feel like writing properly, but I can guarantee I am better educated than you. We have already had that discussion, thought.

We are not doing this guy a favor, we are giving him a chance. His job was killing people, and now we are gunna help turn him into a production miner, something that helps all of humanity. His wife left him 1 week before his return and took his son, because she couldn't handle the military life.

He doesn't have the skills necessary to find employment outside of the military. They did not train him for anything else. They used him, abused him, and tossed him aside. His only other option, as he told us, was to go to work at the local gas station.

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I feel bad for the guy that his wife left. Living in a heavy military community here in Hampton Roads, I can tell you that this is an all to common occurrence with marriages that were started too early by the recruits.

However, when it comes to his not being trained for anything else, I call BS. Having former military in my family and friends who have served as well, I can assure you they do not sit around and play war all day. They are well trained in any number of skills that can get them a job when they get out other than pumping gas. This sounds like someone who didn't pay attention in class and is now blaming the military. Either that, or you are doing it for him. Either way, sometimes life sucks, and it is how you deal with it that determines what kind of man you are. Some, like you, choose to blame the government for choices that were made that they regret later. Others, like me, choose to accept the consequences of our actions and do the best we can with what we are given.

Alright jerseydevil, lets go. For everyone else, off topic, but when challenged I will respond.

Colorado School of Mines, BSc Mining Engineering (pretty much the world wide leader in mining engineering) Graduated with 160 credit hours, enough for a masters at POS schools like CU Boulder and any Cal. university. Took 5 years because I started my masters program in mining engineering, which I will be finishing in the next year or so. Classes were a technical focus (physics, fluids, thermo, differential equations, prob/stats, tunneling, site investigations, and every mining class offered with the exception of explosives engineering II), mixed with a small lib. arts background (political economies of the middle east was my focus). The best part - for one of the toughest engineering schools in the country - it was incredibly easy. I am also working towards a Mine Safety Professional cert., I am a member of the local volunteer fire department, and historical society. I was contracted during my senior year at Mines to locate 30 drillholes for a project in the DR, I hit on 28. The mine is now producing thousands of tons of copper a year, and a little gold everyday, based on my work. And I paid my own way through, I have lots of debt.

Alright, your turn.

To desert_rat - the discussion here has been about education. I do agree that education is not a measure of intelligence, however it does show a certain drive to work to better yourself. Education makes you a better person, period. Does killing people make you a better person? Did you ever kill anybody? Did you ever kill an innocent? Do you ever feel shame for the taking of a life?

To you and your son, and I am being sincere, I hope he comes home safe. And I hope he takes advantage of the college education he can recieve, and goes on to greatness. I hope he doesn't end up getting stuck in Iraq, like Bush.

Oh my god, you are an elitist snob aren't you?
I mean really, kudos to you, you have high academics. That's truly great, but it's a very small measure of a man.

I've never been given nothing in my life. I've scratched and kicked for all that I have and I've done it on my own too. JUST LIKE A BILLION OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

I believe I said it before, and I'll say it again. You ain't nothing special kid.

Branden Branden Branden...

I hope you're wearing nomex undies dude.

Wow...very well educated, I am impressed. However, genius, the challenge was IQ. You have just confirmed what I suspected of you. Good at regurgitating, but not very good at thinking and paying attention. Also most Definitely an elitist who defines himself by the number of diplomas on his wall, and looks down on anyone who doesn't have the same.

You have me beat in education. Hands down. Congratulations. Make you feel better? Now let's see, all I have is my lowly Associates degree in Computer Science. And my CCNA, my MCSE, studying for my CCND, and over 15 years experience in the compter networking and repair field. I also hold several "smaller" if you will, certifications such as A+, Network+, and a few Compaq and HP as well as Fluke technician certs. So yes, again you prove my point that you have sat in the most classes and have collected the biggest piece of paper and as a result, you think you are better than I am.

P.S. I also have no debt, a beautiful wife, and 2 beautiful kids. My wife and I make 6 figures and are financuially secure. Guess that piece of paper on your wall is still trying to pay for itself, huh?

The question was IQ...Intelligence Quotient, and you just showed us all we need to know about yours.

Jersey, we have almost an identical educational background except that I have my mcse and I'm studying for my CCNA, and have recently gone back to school to finish my degree.

It's a wonder how we "low brows" ever make it in the world huh?

Brandon, just to add, I'm 35 and in the black as far as finances go. Not too bad supporting a family on one salary making less than 100K a year eh?...

Just to sort of get back on topic.

What minimum age changes were made? I signed up at 17 with parental consent 15 years ago. My brother in law had to do the same just two months ago?

Branden... You are full of shit. I wouldn't believe anything you said. If you claimed today was Thursday I would still have to check it with a calender. I don't believe for one minute your ROTC story. If anything, this country is the stronger because you never wore a uniform of any type.

The excuses being put forth on behalf of John Kerry are beyond pathetic. He meant to say exactly what he said. Kerry and many people like him and many on this board in this thread have an extremely low opinion of the military that is rooted in ideology and has nothing to do with reality.

John Kerry has been insulting the military for 35 years. Besides his comments calling his own military comrades in arms war criminals in the 70's he also said this about the military in 1972:

"I am convinced a volunteer army would be an army of the poor and the black and the brown." "We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job."

This guy has always had a hatred for the military. Nothing he says is true. There has also never been a disparity of poor and minority people being used by the military. That is nothing but pure leftist dogma, lies, and propaganda. The same dogma and lies are still being repeated by leftists today and John Kerry.

Some facts about the military:

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed112905a.cfm?RenderforPrint=1

Amazing isn't it. High income bracket Americans do join the military. In large numbers too.

More interesting info...

This doesn't even take into account the officers in the US military. This country has the best educated officers of any military on earth. The most educated of any military in history.

The Marines and the Air Force even have higher standards for recruits than the Army does.

You leftists on this board hate the military just like Kerry does. It's part of your insane ideology and the lies and dogma are ingrained within you. Leftist hatred for the military is evident every day in this country. You need look no further than the plethora of lawsuits by left wing universities trying to get military recruiters kicked off their campuses.

I see Branden you are starting to pick up the slack where Kerry left off. Now you are labeling all soldiers as "killers". You even throw in the word "innocent" to denigrate soldiers even further. Accusing soldiers of killers of the innocent.

You are pathetic Branden. What's next? Spitting on them at the Denver Airport?

No I am not special, and as I have said before I have earned everything I have gotten. I am proud of what I have achieved, are you? If that means I am an elitist then so be it.

Education is not a total measure of a man, but it is a piece in the puzzle. What a man does (work), how a man treats others, his family, his friends, his values and his ability to stick up and fight for them are other measures.

As a general rule, education opens doors and is one step in the long climb to being a good person, and helping to leave an impact of this great place. Uneducated people have a lot harder fight, and typically do not achieve nearly as much as those who stuck out the four or more years to get it done.