That's rich - nice dig!

Hey Todrick - LEAVE!

I never knew people felt this way about SCCX. The only thing I ever saw that made me feel uncomfortable were the high speed runs across dry lake beds. I did ride across the lakebed with a group of people at West X though. Once the dust started getting thick I dropped out due to fear that somebody would come out of the dust and hit me. I think things like that are interesting to watch though. Hell, the most dangerous thing I ever saw was the "Chaos" scene for the Nissan commercial and even then it was a controlled situation. Logan was the only guy I ever saw have trouble during a run and that was the time he swamped his truck. I didn't see him ford the river, but the people that did stated that he wasn't going any faster than the others there. I agree that it is important to be sane and leave room for mistakes and unexpected things, but I also feel that there are instances where even the best judgement won't stop you from having damage occur. I'm not going to say Axle was wrong for two reasons:
1) I wasn't there.
2) If I did, then I would probably have the exact same thing happen to me no matter how careful I was.

I was up at Big Bear the following weekend and watched several people slide into ditches. You don't have to be going fast for it to happen. All of the people I saw sliding around were moving at a crawl. I parked my truck far from the area where people were driving because of it. The roads there are rarely flat and the snow was packed on top of a sheet of ice. I had to crawl in 4 lo in first gear and still felt nervous. I parked as soon as I was clear of the traffic area and made my family walk several hundred yards to an area where we could safely play in the snow. My kids were sliding around on the road just walking. If anything the only thing they did wrong in my opinion was to be driving up there at all, but like I said, I wasn't there. That might have been the first ice they ran into. I stand by my statement that Axle is a good guy and a safe driver. He pushes his truck to it's limits, but I've learned a lot from watching him drive, even if it is sometimes not to do what he just did.

Toderick, I had no idea that you felt this strongly about all of this. I remember times that I stood up for you in discussions on this board. You have done some things that some here might think are unwise as well. I know I have. I think you've let a lot of things build up instead of venting at the time you were originally pissed off. You need to let people know how you feel when they do something that irritates you. Holding it in just makes you a lot more pissed later. Hopefully this thread has gotten a lot of stuff in the open and we can all be one big happy family again and just rip on Brent.

scorpion7051 is correct. It is not fair to blackball an entire club because of the actions of a few of its members. And while some of the "more experienced" off-roaders do bring up valid points regarding safety and etiquette, the tone in which they present their arguments is at times condescending, patronizing and holier-than-thou--not to mention instigative. As a result, the members of SCCX have understandably become defensive and this thread has been reduced to an egotistical turf war. Yes, maybe Axle was pushing his Xterra beyond its limits. And yes, maybe certain SCCX members have exhibited questionable off-road behavior in the past--but not all of them. I'd like to think that people can learn from their past mistakes. Can't we all take the higher ground on this matter and just move on?

-dp

Todrick,

I am defending Axle in this instance because I was there. We were going slow down the trail. None of us were driving recklessly. At one point later in the day I was going, literally like 2 miles an hour, and tapped my brakes. All I did was let off of the brake. My whole front end slid sideways 5 or 6 feet because it was icy and I was on a hill. I have seen people at a dead stop slide 10 to 15 feet because it was icy. In my opinion, which I am entitled to, the only thing that we could have done differently to avoid this mishap would be to have stayed at home. What would be the point of owning a 4X4 then? What we do involves a certain amount of risk.

As far as me being a newbie and learning from the old guard from SCCX, I have been driving off road since before I even had a liscence to drive. My dad used to let me drive in the woods in NJ. I am sure some of you on this board will jump on me for saying that now too, but he taught me the safe and proper way to do it at a young age. Those lessons have stayed with me throughout my life.

Jason

As a newbie member of SCCX (even though I have been with them for over 2 years, but don't get a chance to offroad much) I have to give my 2 cents here. Part of offroading is seeing what are trucks can do and what we can do, some are more incline to push those limits farther than others, we have all made mistakes and learned from our experiences. The incident with Axle's truck was an accident and nothing more, could of been worse, I don't know if it could have been avoided, I wasn't there. As for Todricks comments I can't keep my mouth shut about it anymore. The hostility that he has for SCCX stems from the fact that most senior members do not like the way he handled WESTX, he made alot of promises and fullfilled none. He had no itinerary of what was planned, basically it was a free for all and certain SCCX members picked up the pieces and took the lead. As for personal experiences with Todrick in regards to irresponsible behavior, he took a 2wd truck knowing that he had a bad battery to west X, expecting somebody to give him a jump everytime he turned his truck on, I gave him at least 2 jumps while I was there. He took his 2wd on a night run on a 4wd trail, in the process tearing up the trail really bad, determined to make it up the incline and in the end having to be winched up not once but on two different occasions, and holding up the entire group for over an hour. I could go on but I won't. Like you Todrick I try and keep all personal feeling aside, but if there is one thing that I can't stand its hypocrites. Enough said. we have all made mistakes and hopefully we have all learned from them.

From an earlier post.

Oh really?

hey Marshal ( included)

but no, it would be formerxterraownersclub.com unless you think xtoolbox, Xfactor and soon xrock(just to name a few) owned 2wds

Rule number one, Jason.... NEVER ASSUME:

Since you are still here I guess I can be here posting too....

Notice the lead vehicle in a number of the linked pictures.

http://members.tripod.com/xclogan/photos.htm

Silver Canyon (outside Bishop, CA) is challenging for ANY 4WD/AWD vehicle. And the Volvo lead the way until we got to the first of 7 water crossings, which at that time I rode caboose in case the water was too deep and I might have to turn around...But it was not and I did not.

Remember as you quoted...SCCX -IS- different: 2WD? No problem! AWD Stationwagon? No problem! Beginner or Expert? No problem! Attitudes and hippocrites? PROBLEM! The same goes for the rest of you who were not there, who assume.

And I am still active in SCCX. As you can see from this:

http://ca-l2h.tripod.com

Not to mention that I still have a Nissan too (although I think that statement was not directed at me).

LOGAN

Yeah, I see your point... but there is a lot more to it than that.

my problems with sccx go way back, and I did vent in the past, and was banned fom posting on the sccx board for it.

WestX existed because of those problems with sccx... it was the ANTI-Xcursion, intened to go against everything that sccx was doing at that time...

it worked, things mellowed out, i spent hours on the phone with the board of directors and issues were resolved, I was cool with some of the old guard, we put the differences aside and had fun a few times.

but i think everything began to turn sour for me when the anti-xcursion i began turned into an sccx induced nightmare. first axle and logan jumped in and started doing things that were decidedly against what westx was all about, then when i tried to explain renee jumped in withthem and the three of them blasted me publicly and tried to make me look liek the prick for trying to protect what i had started. then when the event acually happened some sccx members only spotted other sccx members on a trail, eventually just leaving people when they broke down.

I was Pissed. But i kept my mouth shut, out of respect for the club as a whole. I spoke to the peopel that were trail and for the most part they were ok with it and said they didn't want to stir up shit over it. since i intended to run more westx's i followed that idea, attempting to avoid another public confrontation with logan, axle and renee... it didn't work. I intentionaly provided no itinerary for westX scheduled for oct. 2003 I was gonna go back to the roots and not allow others to dictate what the event should be, let it just be a "come as you are" event again... they pile don me again, this time not just on the forums, but on PM and email as well...

what happened, SCCX scheduled their nccx/sccx joint run, CALX(normaly held in july) for the weeked prior to westX... this obviously hurt westX, intentionaly i feel, as nccx people where unlikely to make both events and several sccx members emailed me to let me know they would not attend both.

nothing much happened after that, until this thread... Axle and others giving ian shit for jokingly saying he would leave someone behind(when we all know he wouldn't) was too fucking much considering axle HAS left people on the trail.

I think i'm done with this thread, most of the old time members know what started all my issues with sccx... those that don't can PM me if they want, just make sure you PM Xtoolbox & LAXterra as well, remember there are three sides to every story.

Pot calling the kettle black here....

As I remember when I was coordinating the 4 hr rescue effort for the stranded party that Sunday morning at WestX, you were driving home! You, the organizer just left us there not waiting to see if we got out OK or at all. Yes, you may have tried to radio us, but we did not get the message. You know the terrain there you know you have to be right there to get radio communication.

Todrick and Ian would make good off-road partners as they could leave each other if something happened.

And when my truck fell off the road...what was I doing there? I was following Snoopy back to San Diego just to make sure that he and his family got there yes 200+ miles. Remember one of the SCCX rules...Never travel alone....

LOGAN

You need to lower that speed estimate down to 15 or 20 MPH. There is NO way anyone could go that fast there...even off-road bikes could not go that fast there....You have never been there so again....DO NOT ASSUME!!!!!

Can I join too? LOL

you need to knmwo whatyour talking about before you talk man.

I hope every has learned.

The most reckless thing i have ever done in my 2wd was 100mph on the dry lake... with the closest other truck being over a mile away... and only myself in the truck. I have gone places in my 2wd most think insane, but i have always done so with safety in mind, baring one incident where my passenger caused my truck to shift(i even have that on video LOL), i have never had an accident on the trail, not with my xterra, not with my jeep, and not with any other vehicle i have owned.

I resent you blaming me for going on the night run, logan reasurred me 3 seperate times that it would be ok.

If I can not see the ground where I am driving then I WANT A SPOTTER. I am happy to say that I will NEVER be on a run with Ian again (or be allowed to for that matter). I thought that was the point was off-roading TOGETHER. So why don't you go and drive off by yourself? I am sure we would be happy to let you go.... And unlike yourself...if you had trouble I am sure we would come to assist.

And how many runs has RMXC had? Now compare that to the number that SCCX has had... Also take into account that you HAVE NOTHING in Colorado as we do in California for varying terrains. You only have moutains and rocks there. We have EVERYTHING HERE. So get your fat ass out here and see how the real world (if you can call California real) is and not Ian's little narrow minded opininated glass house World.

LOGAN

sorry, once again just going by what YOU told me... you'd think i would have learned by now.

And why did Logan and Axle jump in?
1.You had been there once in the last year.
2.Less than 48hrs prior to the start of WestX, you threw out all of the schedules and changed everything. No wonder no one came, especially the vendors.
3.I only jumped in because after a year of offering to take you there you never went (except for once). How could you plan an event if you do not know the routes and terrain and what is there?
4.As I remember you got lost on Coyote Dry Lake...IN THE DAYTIME WITH A GROUP OF TRUCKS FOLLOWING YOU!!!
5.And did you say "Logan, back off this is mine!" NO!

Shall I go on?

LOGAN

Flame on!!

damn logan, your delusional.

1. um yeah, cause you volunteered to scout the trails we didn't alreayd know and figure out the difficulties. something you and axle apparently misjudged. you did this becaus ei was up front in telling you how busy i was gonna be and that i needed help with it.
2. because you renee and axle tried to hijack the event and put in your own schedules, porta potties and all sorts of other bullshit.
3. I had a job, i was working 6, 12 hour days.
4. lol yeah, i did.. that was funny... No one was in danger, just turned around... as you know the dry lake is HUGE and from the middle you can barely see the edges, let alone the 20' wide exit trail to the south... shit happens, but at least it wasn't dangerous shit or getting people in over their head.

5. no, i guess I should have told you to fuck off... but im generaly a nice guy, you know that... I considered you a friend. you were at my wedding for god sakes... whatever man, I was far too nice with westx cause i didn't want the negative publicity that ended up happening anyway...

its shit like this that makes me glad i got rid of the xterra

Gee if we did not hear from you while we were stranded in the Canyon and you were at the gas station then who were you talking to?

Cause NONE of us heard from you until well after we were out and back to an empty base camp. You were long gone by then. Besides we were to busy turning trucks around, fixing tie-rods, fixing flat tires and getting out to talk to you. I do remember hearing some garbled messages but nothing that I could understand.

How can you organize an event with a dead battery?

DON'T even make an excuse for Coyote Lake. Axle and I can drive to any point on Coyote Lake at night without a GPS and find any thing out there including a way out. (All without landing in the mud hole). I frequently cut across it at night when I am going to/from Fort Irwin from Las Vegas (except after it has been raining) , and yes...IN THE VOLVO too.

And did I take over WestX? NO! As many people heard me say many times it was YOUR event. Everyone there knew you had not done anything for it so most people came to me for questions. I never claimed WestX, only that I was assisting you. That you can ask anyone of. We thought the porta-potties would make is nicer for us camping in Mule Canyon, that's all. Maybe if we had them there then the people who stayed at the KOA would have stayed there and then your WestX would have not been split up as you complained over. Not everyone likes to shit on the ground.

LOGAN

LOGAN

didn't make an excuse for coyote lake... just said it was funny. in hind sight it is... it sucked for the 20 minutes or so we looked for the trail head.

i know you never said westx was your event... but you did attempt to do many things without my input... and i didn't have a problem with people at the KOA, i simply commented that it would have been nice if they came to base camp at night(or stayed later as the case may be)

---edited-------

you know what, its not worth it anymore..;. i ahve been bickering with one memebr or another from sccx for the last 3 years... its rediculous.

I guess i have to have faith that others will be able to see the problems i have seen, for their own sake.

"5. no, i should have told you to fuck off... but im generaly a nice guy, you know that... I considered you a friend. you were at my wedding for god sakes... whatever man, I was far too nice with westx cause i didn't want the negative publicity that ended up happening anyway...

its shit like this that makes me glad i got rid of the xterra"

I started to fuck off and not stay there or even be there.

You had people coming from all over. And for what. "Let's just do what-ever, when-ever". That is not what the people who were there wanted they wanted to know that who-ever was leading them knew what the hell they were doing and where they were going. And what was going on. At least they did until 2 days before when you changed the format. I wanted to leave and considered it Friday night. Muchless Saturday.

I don't think anyone has any doubts of your organization of any event. Look what has happened to WestX since.