Feds Doing More Secret Searches

How much privacy are you willing to give up in the name of "Homeland Security". I suspect most people would agree that they are willing to give up a little freedom for safety, but when should we draw the line. It gives me the creeps that there currently is no line; when you can't even look at the charges that they arrest you on there's a problem.

Uh... 1300 wiretaps on a population of 250 million ? Big deal.

The FBI can wiretap my home all they want.
After one day they will leave, since I am not a criminal and there is nothing worth listening to.

Agreed. All they'd here in my house is the bill collectors talking to my answering machine.

More pointless paranoia. If you're not a criminal, you have no cause for concern.

I'm suprised Madman hasn't jumped in yet spouting "Only deviant liberal members of the ACLU would fear such searches/wire taps". I agree with Ian that the Feds can listen in on my residents as well, I've got nothing to hide. But just you watch, 1300 is just the begining. The funny thing about all this is how republican's are always saying they want less government, but the truth of the matter is government has GROWN since Bush and company have adopted "Homeland Security". Why is it the government is all for increasing searches/surveillance on the American public, yet is against 100% traceability for firearms? Criminals still use them, right?

Maybe they can hear the silly conversations between my roommate and her boyfriend and have him take a "vacation". No one really cares for the guy... Sorry, venting...

It never bothers anybody at first. But when the government comes knocking at your door telling you that you've been suspected as a terrorist and your counsel isn't allowed to look at the eveidence against you, you'll change your tune.

Both Hitler and Saddam Hussein started their regime with only small intrusions into others privacy. Pretty soon all kinds of privacies were beeing stepped on. None of which is any worry to anybody that obeys the law... until charges are brought up with eveidence that didn't exist before the charges.

It never bothers anybody at first. But when the government comes knocking at your door telling you that you've been suspected as a terrorist and your counsel isn't allowed to look at the eveidence against you, you'll change your tune.

Both Hitler and Saddam Hussein started their regime with only small intrusions into others privacy. Pretty soon all kinds of privacies were beeing stepped on. None of which is any worry to anybody that obeys the law... until charges are brought up with eveidence that didn't exist before the charges.

The government will never come knocking at my door though, because I'm not a terrorist. I have nothing to worry about.

I agree to a point. It is our responsibility to watch what they do, to make sure it does not get out of hand. I personally don't mind the new measures they are taking if it prevents another 911 from happening.

you may not think so, but what if some Neo-McCarthy twit decides you are. The Patriot Act could allow revocation of your citizenship resulting in a lack of citizenship anywhere and "their" ability to lock you up permanently.

I'm not saying you are a terrorist, but what if someone in the government or law enforcement arbitrarily decides you are or says you've spoken with one? Your rights as an American can be stripped away instantly. No Justice System for you.

Just what kind of fool proof technology do you propose for this "100% traceability" fairy tale you believe in? How are you going to put this device on all of those guns which are already in the hands of criminals? I doubt that they will just show up at the police station.

As far as wire taps and big brother goes, the intrusions into our lives have been on the increase for years. Clinton and Bush are both responsible. I believe that it was the Klingon (Clinton) administration that developed "Carnivore" and was always requesting more power to nose around in people's lives. Then Bush and Ashcroft take over, and in the name of National Security, they continue to trample on the constitution. This is just another example of how both parties are the same.

There's a reason why I voted for the Libertarian candidate, and it has nothing to do with legalizing drugs.

The notion that the Patriot Act tramples all over The Constitution is bullshit. It's pure propaganda. You have to do a little homework.

The Act in most of it's key components expands some law enforcement tolls already in effect. It also clarifies identification and recordkeeping for financial transactions. Also information sharing between agencies. This should have been in effect all along anyway.

The parts the lefties and liberal people bitch about are the components dealing with non US citizen residents. Personaly I have never felt that non citizens should have all the rights and protections under the law granted US citizens.

Something had to be done when a bunch of non citizens murdered 3000 people and it was clear they were members of an international terrorist organization.

1300 wiretaps... I am shocked it is that low. It is estimated that there are almost 1300 mosques in the US alone. The overwhelming majority funded by money from overseas. Who knows how many charities and non-profits have been created to collect, launder, and funnel money to terrorist and jihadi activities.

It would seem The Patriot Act is not being used as much as it should. I would have expected many thousands of wiretaps. Especially due to the "roving wiretap" provisions. Fact is they just don't have the manpower. They still have to get a warrant for a tap and they also have to show "cause". They don't just pull names from a hat.

Anyone here who thinks the government is infringing on their personal rights is either an idiot or guilty of something.

The Patriot Act expires in 2005 anyway.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/08/23/patriot.act.explainer/

"Anyone here who thinks the government is infringing on their personal rights is either an idiot or guilty of something."

Isn't this your beef with Socialism,leftism and Communism and all the other isms you preach against?



You don't mind intrusion as long as it benefits you?

1) I'd appreciate if you're going to quote me, you use a direct quote. I don't remember using the words "Blah, blah, blah". Even Madman wouldn't sink as low.

2) If we as a country can put a man of the moon, I'm sure somebody (with government intervention if necessary) could come up with a better system for the traceability of firearms. What it all boils down to is just how important is it to the American public to keep firearms out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them? Please don't bring up the same tired argument of comparing firearms to knives, baseball bats, or other objects that can be used to kill, it's much easier to stop a criminal who has a knife or bat, instead of an assault weapon.

It isn't limited to non-US citizens. It can be used against anyone. They don't have to reveal who they have taken into custody.

The Patriot Act II is even worse. Your citizenship can be taken away. The Constitution says that American's citizenship cannot be taken, unless they *voluntarily* relinquish it. This part of the Patriot Act flies in the very face of our most important document.

Thanks Mobycat.

Come on Moby... The Judiciary has been shitting on the Constitution in this country for years.

I'm no huge fan of the Patriot Act. I do agree that the Patriot II is too much. It won't pass. It has to be rewritten.

I believe the original Patriot Act has no provisions for removing citizenship. The detainment provisions relate to non citizens. The other stuff you are talking about is Patiot II.

Regarding citizens being held indefinitely... Jose Padilla is the only one I know of. They have the right to hold him since the President declared him an "enemy combatant" and he was transferred to military custody. I believe the government has the right to do this to anyone who threatens US interests especially since he trained in a foreign country (Afghanistan).

You have to admit, this terrorist stuff is charting new terrority regarding the law.

As the liberals love to say "The Constitution is a living, breathing document". I don't believe this is true but... back at ya.....

Well, I don't disagree with you that non-citizens shouldn't have the same rights. And while, I don't think the Patriot Act will be abused, it very easily *could* be.

For argument's sake, suppose someone just decided to start saying they thought you were a sympathizer. Now, say that person has some sway with people in the FBI or CIA or whatever. Next thing you know, you're being investigated (and not even know it). Then, say you were talking to someone on the phone, and said to them, "yeah, I wish Clinton were shot dead" or "yeah, I wouldn't be disappointed if Bush got nailed." While this is something you surely wouldn't say in public and not say in seriousness, it's taken as otherwise. Next thing you know, they start asking you questions. How do you defend yourself?

Obviously, this is an extreme example. But it's possible, however remote.

If the constitution *isn't* a living document, why did we bother with establishing the judiciary? Their job is to interpret it, not set law.

(And yeah, it's II that has the citizenship issue...I don't see how it could possibly pass as is)

Under The Patriot Act they still have to get a warrant. Judges just don't give these out like presciptions or something. Agents or Police must show sufficient probable cause.

Here in NY the police are lucky if they get a little over 100 warrants for wiretaps.. that's in a good year. The public is kind of misled that these warrants are given out like candy. They are not. A judge's reputation and career credibility come into play with these things too. There are even liberal anti-police judges out there who will never sign off on one of these. Such is life.

Well, now you've hit on a part I'm not familiar with.

Do they have to deal with local jurisdictions? I thought the FISA didn't deal with the normal court system.

Don't know much about FISA. The only thing I do know is that there is a judge somewhere that authorizes wiretap warrants. Whether under FISA or any other legal provision. Do they have secret judges? Who knows.

With FISA the NSA even comes into play. Where "National Security" interests are concerned.. they can do whatever they want basically. If you are going to bring a case into court that is where all the legalese has to be in order. Otherwise the case will get thrown out and the government's efforts to prosecute will be down the drain.

NSA...now *there* is an interesting organization. I particularly like the exits off I-95 that go into their facility.

"NSA Employees ONLY"

Ya didn't pick up on my "Godfather" quote...



Real life guys like this at one time were the source for most wiretap requests. By the Feds at least.

You think we actually went to the moon!?