That's more your problem than their's. First time I saw two guys together - I walked into a party at college. The two were on the couch all over each other. It took me aback, I admit. But a split second later, I thought, "meh...whatever."

I couldn't care less what two people do together. As long as it doesn't affect me, which it doesn't, why should I? Nobody is getting hurt, so let them get on with it.

Unlike some people here, my reaction to being hit on by a guy is the usual: I tell them "no, thanks, I'm not gay." That has ended it in EVERY case. And I'd be willing to bet the farm I know more openly gay people than most here.

HOA.

Otherwise, I guaran-damn-tee you one of my fucking neighbors would.

Ah, but that you could definitely fight on religious freedom grounds.

Now, the *size* of them may be another matter.

You go girl

I was waiting for that....(all day, like).

SNAP!

I would, but someone would piss and moan and make me take it down. I live in a townhouse association.

The part that scares the libertarian side of me in all this is that the Christian will be the first one to shove the gun in your face, the Christian will be the first one to put the shackles on you, the Christian will be the first to send you to gulag, the Christian will be the first one to waste you and your family and your friends because the Christian can separate himself from his actions via the Bible. He's not shooting your wife, God is shooting your wife because that's God's will, the Christian is just the medium. It's not the Christian who ransacked your house and threatened you, it was God. The Christian was just the medium. It's not the Christian who will exert social control and make you live in fear, it's God who does that...the Christian is just doing his duty. It's not the Christian's fault--he was just doing God's will, just following orders.

And why would he care about you anyway? Aren't you just a deviant? Didn't you shove your disgusting beliefs down his throat when you had the chance? Did you think that you could just live your own life the way you see fit? Hubris! Did you think that you could chip away at family values with your disgusting belief that homosexuality is okay? Did you think that you could destroy America with your elitist liberalism?

Hutu vs. Tutsi, Serb vs. Croat, German vs. Jew, Christian vs. you. Same shit, different shirt.

Lemme tell you something, hombre. I'm half Scottish, half Persian. I'm hairy and I stink. Guess which side I got that from?

[Hint: It ain't the Persian side!!!]
[img]http://www.propstore.co.uk/images/products/31/bh-rubberaxea-dvd.jpe[/img]

This conversation has turned to the amusing side now.

So stop watching "Queer as Folk," bitch!

Sure have served. US Army Infantry and JAG.

Even got called back for this war.

Released now. Might get called up again.

I was born and raised a Baptist (in Hopatcong, NJ). Already read the Bible, cover to cover. This is more than I can say for most so-called Christians.

You've said how you feel about the practices of homosexuals. I don't like it either. However, the reason I won't bring Religion into the discussion is because it has no relavence in legislative or Military issues.

Wow, that the biggest load of Bullshit I have ever read.

Okay.

History books are filled to the bindings with instances in which people slaughtered each other en masse for the glory of Christ. In each instance, there was a dehumanization of those they murdered. They were called "filth", "deviants", "disgusting", "infidels", and in each instance the Christians were able to justify murdering by believing they were doing God's will, that they were defending their way of life by cleansing their culture of those who opposed God's way.

I believe, it is my honest opinion, that if there ever comes a time in this country when men knock on others' doors in the middle of the night and make them disappear, like has happened in so many other nations in recent history, that these men who will torture, murder, kidnap, cajole, and steal, will do so because they feel that they are defending their way of life, and that they have been called upon by a higher power.

And I do believe that that time will come. I don't believe that America, with its Civil War, witch hunts, lynchings, and depressions both economic and cultural, has seen its darkest hour.

What hasn't been brought up is the reason that "don't ask, don't tell" doesn't quite work. It does allow gays to serve, but there is always that hanging over their heads. You can be one of the best troops, not be open about who you are, and then have someone find out and get kicked out.

Even though you are not supposed to "ask, or tell" coworkers ask questions. So then gays have to come up with the "fictitious" boyfriends/girlfriends back home to have a reason they are not talking about who they are seeing and so on. Where coworkers will come in and talk about new relationships, or ups and downs in relationships, the gay troop has to suck it up and move on without talking about it.

I had a friend of mine that was in the Marines, and she was an awesome Marine, she was always going good. She had a friend that she had told about herself. They went to a party off base, and he got drunk and started being a jerk and wanted to get in a fight with someone. In trying to get him out of there he punched her and broke her nose. When they got back to the dorms, he told her that if he got in trouble for hitting her, he would tell on her. Some other people knew about it, and she got called in to her "command staff (I don't remember who), they already knew the story of him hitting her. So she talked to the chaplain about this, and he said to keep her from getting in trouble, she needed to tell her "command staff" about being gay, before it came from this guy. So he got in trouble for hitting her, and she got kicked out of the Marine Corp. She actually had to take someone in to talk to her Commander to say that yes, they had seen her kissing another woman. So letting one friend know about her, cost her a career she had wanted, because he was an ass.

I know when I was at Hickam AFB in Hawaii there was a sweep, where one person was getting kicked out for being gay, and they told him they would dishonorably discharge him if he didn't give names of other gay military members, so he just started listing them. There were AF, Army, and Navy people listed, I believe the Army and Navy didn't kick out the people listed, but the AF brought in the AF people and started processing them for discharge. Also with the threats of dishonorable if they didn't give up names. So with "don't ask, don't tell" you can keep to yourself, but it can still come back to bite you.

So that is one reason why people are pushing to get rid of "don't ask, don't tell", it doesn't mean they want to be completely open about being gay, but they don't want to worry about being kicked out.

Dusti
Active AF Dec 91-Aug 96
Air Guard Aug 96 - present

Yep. Thanks for describing the crusades about 700 years ago. Grubby little muslims are doing it today....every day....by strapping explosives to themselves and killing innocent people all around the world.

You're probably right that America hasn't yet seen its darkest hour. When the liberals succeed in unstitching the moral fabric the country was built upon (and they're doing a snappy job of it), there will be conflict. Hopefully when it happens, we all emerge with our country back.

And where did that Crusading tradition end? The IRA, the Anglican Church, the Inquisition, the Conquistadores, the Vatican, witch hunts, the churches and priests who condoned and conducted the wholesale slaughter of indigenous people on two continents, zie Germans in two world wars--just a tiny part of a very violent history, and all subscribers to a belief that killing is wrong, no matter the reason.
I'm just saying that when that conflict comes, and neighbor turns against neighbor, it'll be a religious man that hacks your childrens' hands off.

Being an ultra right wing Christian conservative who proudly served this country for 13 years, my opinion is this:

Gays are already allowed to serve. Don't ask, don't tell. If one were to come out and announce they were gay, act gay, make it a point to let everyone konw he/she was gay, well they probably wouldn't make it back form their tour of duty.

If you want to be gay in the military, fine. If you want to make it a point to be gay in the military, I wish you the best of luck making it back without any harm.

Us straight folk don't make it known to everyone that we are straight. We don't wear special rainbow pins or have secret code when I get the inklin' for a hummer. It is your choice, but I prefer you keeping it on the closet, because you know what queer-bait, no one cares one iotta if you are gay.

The only word that comes to mind is "IDIOT". Shahram, you are complete idiot. Why do you hate Christians so? And yes, you do hate us. Read everyone of your posts on the topic. Why? What have we ever done to you personally?

JeffW .... I understand totally what is being discussed but although in writing they are separate, once debates being perosnal morals and values are what drives most arguements or disagrements ... and usually most morals or values are derived from some sort of religion ... not always ... so although you say it was written in the end they are as intertwined as ever ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...you're kidding, right?

So, straight folk keep their significant other secret...don't get married...don't go to the bars to pick up others...never joke with each other about the opposite sex.

Yeah....riiiiiiiiiiigggghhhtt.

You can call me names all day, but I don't see you getting off of Jesus's tit long enough to refute my points. What you got? Nothin'?

Yep, Christians are horrible people. They never do any good, like found the greatest country in the world or anything like that. I think Shazam would be happier back in Iran where everyone lives so peacefully; where gays and women get to exist freely.

Once again shazam you display how far your head is up your ass ..... shut up


Amazing how ignorant people overlook such small details about respecting what the country they live in and rely on was built upon ... maybe Shazam would prefer if we were all as prejudice, racist and ignorant as he, then we could settle this with a duel at high noon

I still have not heard one refutation of a point I've made. Not one.

All the good that Christians have done? Like found the greatest nation on Earth? You mean they just made it up out of nowhere? No one was here before? Were the founding fathers really good Christians? Is it possible to be a good Christian while decimating an indigenous population and enslaving an entire race? Or does JC overlook little things like murder and enslavement of millions of people for the...ahem...greater good? Or does it not count when they're brown?

Yeah, keep bringing up Iran...nice. Can one of you form an argument that doesn't involve bringing up my ethnicity, or spitting out blind propaganda?

On second thought, why break character? Just call me some names, tell me to shut the fuck up, and oh yeah, remember to tell me to go back to where I came from.