Seems to be an issue......

Again!

I, personally, don't see the issue. Gays are allowed in the Army. They're just not allowed to go around bringing their sex life into the workplace. Whether somebody's gay or straight, to bring their sex life into the workplace is simply unprofessional.

So really what wte have here is gays complaining that Uncle Sam won't let them act unprofessionally in the workplace. Well, I hate to break it to them, but the straight guys aren't allowed to, either. If a soldier makes a comment that makes anoher feel uncomfortable, that soldier can file a complaint.

Regardless, there's no current ban on gays. I've even met soldiers that act gay. They are allowed to do whatever they want on their free time. They're just not allowed to bring their sex life into the workplace. Fine by me.

The Army has never been about self-expression. It is about training for war and, if necessary, going to war.

It's not about talking about how you banged Mary Jane Rottencrotch ten ways til tuesday........

It's not about running around like a bunch of fairies talking about the "hot boy" you met last night........

This is a ridiculous issue. I have no idea why the gay community insists on pushing their "gayness" on everyone. Things are fine the way they are. I have no interest in who's gay and who's not.

Ahem...please leave Chris.. out of this.

Thank you.

Spank!

I see no reason whatsoever to keep happpy people out of the military.

They can serve. I just don't want to hear about them. If they're in the service, they have a job to do, just like everyone else. Keep the fairy shit on their own time.

It's a deviant lifestyle. Of course conservative people will comment about it. Get over it.

(sounded like Madman, there, didn't I?)

Must...refrain....from posting.

Uurrrggghhhhhh

OH BOY!!!

Taking bets now, at what time today will this hit 3 pages. I am going with 4:30 MST.

:rolleyes:

I don't see how another person's lifestyle is any of your business, so why do you feel the need to comment about it?

Perhaps you should get over it.

Gay, Lesbian, Black, White, Foreign - Whatever. If they have stepped up and are protecting our country. Then they deserve a fricken break here. I think they should all be allowed to wear shocking Pink camouflage if they want.

I'm sure a gay guy can do just as good a job as his hetro colleagues, if we overlook the whole - Running screaming like a girl when they are shot at thing!

Was there a news story/link with this one? I have netflix so I never watch regular TV (including the news).

This is the first I've heard of it as well.

Netflix rocks.

Hey, any man who is willing to risk his life to serve his country is a good man.

Leave'em alone

Washington Post Article

The article isn't specifically about gays in the military, but now all kinds of politicians are jumping back into the mix.

Sorry man but "don’t ask don’t tell" wasn't meant to last forever.

It was only a matter of time until America had to decide about allowing people to serve.

Its gonna be a hell of a debate, especially with the fiery evangelical preachers and "born agains", but this has to be resolved.

They're already allowed to serve.

Now all they're fighting for the right to throw their "gayness" in the other soldiers' faces.

So if they keep their "gayness" to themselves, then the heterosexual people should not talk about their encounters with women? Would only seem fair..

I have never been in the military, but I don't see what the big deal is. You think that if you were in combat, and a gay guy was next to you, do you really think he'd be checking out your ass versus combat...

I honestly don't know what this means.

Are you referring to gay soldiers saying the words "I am homosexual" out loud?

What, exactly, constitutes throwing "gayness" in someone else's face?

you don't need to apologize to him. tell him to fuck off.

here, I'll do it for you:

Hey Jeff, fuck the fucking fuck off, fuckface.

see, it's easy. you try.

Well, I have been in the military and I wouldn't care to shower with openly gay guys. I'd much rather just not know they're gay. I'd consider that too much an invasion on my personal space. The women and men might as well start showering together then....well......on second thought.....

As to my other comment regarding deviancy, that was a stab at NYMadman....did you not see that reference in parentheses, Pnwbeers, or were you so overcome with gay pride that you were blinded to that?

There's not a lot of liberals in the military. Not that no tolerance is an excuse, but allowing soldiers to be openly gay is only going to cause trouble, as well as morale issues. Right now the military has enough issues with recruiting, morale, and getting through this war we're in with the hairy people.

As for "Gay" being normal...if that were the case, why isn't half the population....or ALL the population gay? Nope, only a small percentage of people who haven't figured out how normal intercourse works feel this way. Sorry. It's not normal. Therefore, I don't see why heteros need to be in the closet too.

Flame away.

This will be 3 pages by noon.

right on desert rat.
either that or keep them seperate, the same way they do with the men and women.

Desert_Rat, I can guarantee you that you have showered with homosexual soldiers, and whether or not it was an invasion of your personal space, as you said, has to do with your own insecurities with your sexuality. You think every woman who looks at you finds you attractive? I doubt it. It's the same with homosexuals. Get over yourself.

I think people who are posting in this thread about the "abnormality" of homosexuality need to be a little better educated on the subject.

I believe what you're looking for was posted in the first post:

Also, like Desert Rat has said, men and women are separated in the field. They have their own tents and own shower. How, exactly, do you separate gays from each other and other men?

They sure as hell ain't gonna let em shower with the women......

OK.

That being said, why are women and men separated? Not because we're insecure. It just happens to be a privacy and appropriateness issue. Once a gay's sexuality is brought into the mix, it is no longer appropriate for him to shower with the straight men. No more appropriate than it is for males and females to do so together, anyway........

Are you saying that straight men should want to shower with people they know are gay?

Special interest does NOT equal special rights.

Didn't know you were being sarcastic, my bad. As far as your "gay pride" comment, I'm not even gay so I'm not sure how I have gay pride, but whatever. I just get tired of intolerant people, so my fuse may have been a bit short.

So you think discriminatory policies are ok because they help recruiting? Can you even prove that opening the door to more people would hurt recruiting?

"Hairy people"? :rolleyes:

I'm curious - can you nail down the exact moment that you "decided" to be heterosexual. I sure can't...

And To get back to Grayham's point - how is being able to admit that you're gay "throwing your gayness around"? Anybody?

I'm straight. Did I just throw my straightness around?

What's wrong? Afraid of being converted?

Are equal rights special rights?

I never said that. If someone doesn't want to take a shower and wash the stank off themselves because "*gasp!* there's a gay person in there, and OMG what if he comes onto me," then perhaps they have bigger problems than just their own insecurities.

As shocking as this may sound, gays aren't prowling around looking for people they want to have sex with.

And, by the way, why are you focusing on the shower scenario? Is there something you want to share with the rest of the class?

I really don't understand the whole big deal about this. So if he's gay, so what? I don't care...if I'm in the army and I have to shower with someone gay - be it.

Personally I don't care who I shower with, might as well be a woman...oh look, now I have somewhere to hang my shower sponge on!

Because it's a scenario where men and women are segregated, just like tents.

I'm sure I have. And I didn't know about it....and that's the way it should stay. No, I don't think ANYONE would find my ass attractive, but it doesn't make me any more comfortable.

Put a fat chick and a hot chick in the shower with a bunch of guys. Do you think because the guys aren't attracted to the fat chick, she feels any more comfortable in that situation than the hot chick? Your argument is stupid.

Who is uncomfortable in that situation - the straight guy showering with the gay, or the gay showering with the straight guy.....I'll tell you it's the straight guy. Straigt people are the vast majority. No, I don't think people are "born" gay. It's a conscious decision that is made at some point in their lives. Nature drives us to be hetero....that's how species propogate.

With regard to my comment about the hairy people....Has anyone seen the Arabs we're fighting? Prove me wrong. They're fricking hairy. Osama bin Hidin looks like about the 3rd generation in his family to walk upright

To the other reply by pnwbeers...you're right..a policy of intolerance isn't probably the best road. On the other hand, you're not going to change the beliefs of many, and many believe homosexuality is wrong. Very wrong. True or not, these convictions run deep, and by "throwing it in the faces" of the heteros in the military - Our military where teamwork is absolutely essential to success, is asking for trouble.

I would be happy not to speak of escapades with women if I never had to hear another story about a gay encounter. Sorry, but it makes me sick to even think about it.

I think the 'shower' question is a reasonable one. If a guy is gay, hes attracted to other males. So in an open shower he is free to gander at whomever he wants. So if thats OK, why cant straight males shower with straight women? Same thing, right?

Same for a lesbian woman in a girls shower.

Maybe the answer is 3 showers. Gay males and lesbians in 1, straight guys in another, straight girls in a third.

Ha!

You're over three hours slow!!!

Well no, it's not the same thing. There are certain social rules and standarts. However just because the person is gay we wouldn't make him shower with only gay people, would we? Come on now...

But if straight women would be allowed to shower with staight men then strip clubs and brothels would go out of business.

Hate to disappoint with you here, slick, but that is exactly what they do. At least the gays that my wife and I have had experience with. She used to be friends with 2 gay men that she worked with, until they started explaining how they tried to get married men in bed, and kept score of how many straights they had.

Homosexuality is a deviant behavior, and if you don't like it, so be it, berate me all day. The Bible (the evil book to you liberals) says that a man shall become one with his wife, not another man. God created Eve as Adam's companion, not another man. Call me a bible thumper all you want, but before the 60's and 70's and the outbreak of all this liberalism crap, this was the greatest country in the world, and it is slowly being turned into a cesspool with all of this acceptance of deviance.

Tell me I sound like madman if you want, I don't care. At least he spoke his mind.

So in your opinion, what exactly the liberals are doing to turn this country into crap as you say?

I dunno - every gay person I've ever known well enough that this topic came up swears they never made any type of decision. They expressed as much interest in having sex with a woman as I do in having sex with a man (ie, none).

I don't fully understand it myself, but it's not for me to judge and I'm not going to hold it against them in any way.

True.

I understand that and you certainly have every right to hold that belief, but I don't think that should form the basis of gov't policy.

The gov't is and should be held to a different standard that private citizens.

Like I said to DR, you can hold whatever personal beliefs about homosexuals that want - that's just fine and nobody should quibble with that.

The gov't is a different story.

He was entertaining, that's for sure.

So the government should be held to your standard, is that it?

I have to chime in on this one because I recently saw something that infuriated me. I live in DC and recently went into the Smithsonian's Museum of American History (same museum that just got Jerry's puffy shirt) because I have lived here my whole life and never find time to go into all the free museums we have here. Anyway...there is a section of war memorablia from all of the major wars... WWI stuff..WWII exhibits..etc. I am browsing the vietmam exhibit with all sorts of touching photos, dog tags, matchbooks, and letters back home to mom that never made it. Really moving stuff....then I see the gay vietnam display.

WTF?

It was an exhibit with military artifacts wrapped in rainbows and adorned with pink triangles. Why oh why must the gays bring gayness into a friggin military exhibit?? What is the significance here? Are supposed to honor the gay soldiers more than the straight ones? These guys were soldiers in a nasty war..what does gayness have to do with anything??? Man, I was soooooo pissed. I stormed out......but not before seeing the Puffy Shirt.

jerseydevil - check your PM.

Actually yes, people are "born" gay. IT has to do with a hormone disbalance, actually it's a lack of a hormone (forget the name of the hormone) that makes a person gay. People are born with it (actually without it in this case) they just never think about it until they start explaring their sexuality. There's no such thing as "becoming" gay. Some gay men do not want to admit that they are gay and have wives and lead normal sex life, but they know that deep inside they are gay and there's no denying that. A lot of gay men can actually lead normal lives and have sex with women (no, not bi). It's not like straight men having sex with men, you know...

No. I'm a private citizen too.

Bullshit. No conclusive studies have been done to link the two.

Oh yeah there have been!

Don't forget sleeping arrangements. Many times there are 2 man rooms in the military. You going to let 2 openly gay males live together? What about openly gay females? (Reminds me of the t-shirthell.com shirt, I'm for gay marriages as long as both chicks are hot) Having openly gay people in the military would open a bunch of issues. Are you going to make a hetero male room with a gay male? (if it's an issue with the gay or hetero) It really does open a big can of worms.

back at ya ...

You are kidding right?

You say things like this, and you're calling my argument stupid?

And I'm sure homosexuals choose to be ridiculed and looked at as being "abnormal" human beings. To get their asses kicked by those who feel the need to reaffirm their masculinity.

To be looked at differently once someone finds out they're gay, merely on the basis of what goes on in their bedroom. It's happened to me, more than a few times.

Sorry pal, the only choice I made was whether or not I accepted myself as the person I was born as.

This thread can fuck the fuck off IMHFO.

Smitty, you big tease.....

I haven't ridiculed anyone. That's the problem. You take it personally because others don't accept you and your explanations. I've never beat the shit out of a gay, nor have I have said anything hateful to a gay (I work with MANY gays - that's corporate life these days). I'm tolerant of it. I don't like it, but I tolerate it.

So....when you're done feeling sorry for yourself because everyone is always picking on you, wake up and then start seeing the other side of the argument and think about what this would do to our military.

Don't ask, don't tell. It is the best policy in the military short of banning gays all together. I'm behind ANYONE who will fight for our country, but that person will lose my support as soon as their personal agenda takes precedence over the job my tax dollars are paying them to do.

You haven't been around the military lately. The only place you find men and women separated in tents is in combat arms units - infantry, armor, field artillery, etc. In the support units, they all live together. There are separate showers - when there are showers, but they all sleep side by side in the same tent.

I think the military policy is there because straight folks don't really want gays around them. Since fielding an army of gay folks would be rather difficult, considering most of the population is straight, the policies lean toward the ideals of straight folks. Personally, I don't give a rats ass. I'm in the infantry - we have more ass grabbing, smacking, pinching, "cop a feel", and ball smacking than you'd find in most gay night clubs. It's the nature of the business - like a family full of boys - just a really disfunctional one. It's nothing unusual to see someone walking around with their penis hanging out - either by choice or by accident - BDU crotches tear easily. We show each other our scrotums on a routine basis. If seeing someone else's pecker in close proximity to your face is really unnerving, combat arms is not for you. It gets worse in the war zone. If someone at home witnessed our behavior, they'd swear we have a company full of gay guys. Gays in the military - who cares? Hell, the REMFs are fags (in the George Carlin sense of the word) anyway.

Nice way of putting it ... it is just plain wrong, physically, morally, and biologically ... unfortunatley society has now given up on keeping fags out, so now that the attention is not on the flaming fudge packers anymore they miss it and want it back, so they complain about anything they can and call it "equal rights" instead of "right to act like a fairy " ... the military is the military, plain and simple, and if you are a fag and want to prance around with your shirt in a knot and your pants cut into capri's, join broadway not the military. The military has very proud traditions that are hundreds of years old and there is no way that they should be changed for anyone ... not foregn or domestic needs and especially for a queer ...

This is such bullshit. A gay can serve, as long as they shut up about it.

But if you're straight, you can openly have a wife, kids, etc.

How is that any different? Because they have a boyfriend, they have made their personal agenda precedence? Bullshit.

Because a man and a wife is normal, socially acceptable behavior for humans.

Why are STD's so rampant among gays? Very few gays are monogomous. I've watched the effect of AIDS on a couple of gay coworkers who I considered friends. It was pitiful to see, and it was his lifestyle of sleeping around that got them there. Most lack the moral fabric to keep themselves healthy...and now we're teaching our kids that this behavior (it IS a behavior) is OK.

Whoever made the comment about liberal thought ruining this country is on to something. While I'm a believer in individual liberty, I also believe that you have to exercise self control on the issue. The notion that everyone should emrbrace homosexuality is bullshit. I don't have to. That's me exercising my own liberty. Family values are more important to me. And no, that doesn't mean a gay couple adopting kids...that's a travesty. Kids should be brought up in a traditional family setting. And yes, many heteros haven't figured that out yet either as they expose their kids to horrible childhoods because of their parents' problems. But even those problems can be linked to people who can't exercise any self control over the freedoms they have either. And I agree that makes them no better than a homosexual.

Before I get ragged, I know there are heteros that sleep around like it's nobody's business, and I have no more respect for that than I do for permiscuous gays.

The topic was about gays being openly gay in the military. Sexuality has no place in 95% of the workplaces....ANY sexuality. Most corporations don't allow it. In the military, where comraderie wins battles, and division among the troops loses them, there's no place for this.

You want to be gay? Go ahead. It's a free country. Keep the flaunting of the lifestyle away from my kids and our military.

I hope this message is supposed to come across as sarcastic.

Someday, when the revolution comes, homosexuals will be put into the same death camps as conservative Christians. There they will be able to communicate and work out their differences. Then they will be gassed and buried, and there will be much rejoicing.

When the revolution comes, we will not be told how to live.
When the revolution comes, we will not be told how to decorate.

Just ain't natural for them queers to be getting married to each other. You let stuff like that get started then you gonna have them bi-sexuals coming in there wanting to have a man and a woman both and then it's katie bar the door. Be too late then, cows done out of the barn and people gonna be all confused about who is suppose to sign the kids report card. Not to mention the confusion on Mother's day. Ain't fair that a kid got two moms and got to buy two presents. Fence em in ! that's what you got to do. Yep, that's it! Give them a Home Depot and some Donna Summers music and fence em in.

absolutely fucking hysterical.

http://www.funkypages.com/coolsounds5/armagg.wav

nevermind...I'm not wastng my time anymore...

Why is it that only your religion is supported? So you believe in god and your lifestyle is affected by that. So why hate on people who believe in being gay and choosing that as a life style. If people who are gay can go through all hatred and discrimination that is against them and still practice what they believe in, then I will respect that. Who the hell are you to say that what you believe in is better then what a gay person believes in. You believe in the bible good for you!! Others believe in the koran!!! good for them, but nothing makes your book better then anyother religion.

As regarding the military: Aren't there rules that prohibit sexually behavior towards another officer? Meaning if you make a pass towards a female officer don't you get punished? Why not do the same for everyone.

Do you realize that the moral values established in the evil book (The Bible for those non-liberals reading)are the values that this country was founded on? Don't you think it's ironic that our money and government buildings all say "in God we trust"? I never said my religion was better than others, but to have no religion as a moral compass, I believe is trouble.

Sorry, I will not be bullied out of my beliefs. Call me a bible thumper if you want, I do it with pride. Jesus said if you stand with me on earth, I will stand with you in the kingdom of heaven. If you forsake me on earth, I will forsake you before my father. He also asks that those who believe spread his word.I choose to listen to what my lord and saviour asks me to do, and I pray for those who don't.

Mostly_Harmless does have a great point and I agree, if they wanna be gay and deal with everthing that goes with it, go ahead, but don't expect society to entirely except flaming homosexuallity in every aspect of life because traditions die hard ... gay marraige in Canada is absolutle an abomination and should never have made it to the supreme courts but our government is a group of nutless cowards ... in regards to the military, basically do what you are told because that is part of the job description, if you don't like it go work security at Walmart

Hey, now that the coast guard falls under homeland security, There is one branch of the military that needs to be filled. (pentagon, five branches of the military... you know.) I say we develop a homosexual branch of the military. Their insignia can have lavender triangles, red ribbons, rainbow insignias etc. as long as the uniforms are incredibly fashionable, and the colors don't clash.

This elite fighting unit would be trained to pound on the enemy's chest screeching, "you beast!" and "I'll scratch your eyes out." They wouldn't be issued AR-15's, they'd be issued curling irons and sissors. Their mission? To trim and shave all those "hairy people" mentioned earlier. The mess and lodging accomodations would be modeled on that of the YMCA and Cher, Bette Midler or Barbra Striesand would be the General in charge of the troops.

It could work.

Uh...what? Support? You've got to be kidding me, right?

Don't you realize that Christianity gets slammed every day in one way, shape or form? Whether it's some dolt trying to get rid of "Under God" out of our Pledge of Allegiance, or another trying to get the Ten Commandments out of a courthouse.

Now, how do you think people that are Christian react? Most turn the other cheek, or try to make a valid argument for their case/cause until they realize that it is futile, and just plain give up speaking their mind (see jerseydevil's post above).

I have heard people get bashed for being critical of the Muslim faith. But the same people can turn around and be just as critical of the Christian life and yet they are lauded for speaking out against the faith. Where did we go wrong here, people?

I follow as much as a Christian lifestyle as my need for enjoyment of life allows. Doesn't seem very Christian? Maybe not, but I certainly don't allow myself to bash one religion and then turn around and say another should not be criticized.

Do I believe in God? Perhaps. Do I believe in Allah? I don't know, I wasn't brought up as a Muslim. Does that mean my beliefs are right? According to me, they have to be, don't they? Or why else would they be my beliefs? Do I believe homosexuality is wrong? Yes. Do I go around and look for homosexuals to ridicule and bash? Absolutely not. Do I think they belong in the military? Absolutely - they have just as much of a right to get their arms and legs blown off by militant Muslims as a heterosexual.

But PLEASE don't tell me that having Christian beliefs in this day and age is out of style, or not hip, or not cool, or whatever the coined phrase is this week.

I have a hunch that in a few more decades, we will all wish we had a little more faith, and myabe, just MAYBE a little more unification of church and state. Because where we're headed, just doesn't appeal to me that much.

Peace,
Ross

well said, my friend, well said!

A perfect assessment of the issue.

How do you sgregate gays like we have men and women?

Do you:

mix the gay and straight men?

put the gay men alone together?

put the gay men with the women?

put one gay man per one tent?

Or do you forget all that bullshit, stick with "don't ask don't tell" and drive on with the mission.

Wow Tonka, I couldn't have said it better ... agree totally with you as that is my opinoin more or less ... people spend so much time trying to change things for themselves thinking that the world should revolve around their wants or beliefs or religion or whatever ... what gives you the right to say your religious beliefs or whatever are better then someone elses? ... just cause the western world was built on "christian" values and beleifs and is still for the majority populated by people following those beleifs doesn't mean it should change for small groups of people within the populus who think their shit don't stank ... just get over yourself people, there are more important things in life

Holy shit!

What in the world does the bible have to do with gays in the Military?

We are discussing Military law/policy. For those of us who realize what country/century we're in, there's a little thing call separation of church and state.

If that were true, it'd be one thing. But it's not.

Funny how that wasn't there when the country was founded, eh?

There are some religions that don't have a problem with it. And they are doing just fine in the morals department.

It all goes back to fear of change, which is something conservatives (who don't like it) and liberals (who sometimes want too much, too fast) have been struggling with since the beginning.

It also speaks to people's fear of the unknown, and not wanting to know. However, if people would just open their eyes just a little bit to see the bigger picture, that not everyone lives their life based on their sexual orientation, the world would be better off. I'm obviously not saying it must be accepted by everyone, I'm just saying people need to become better educated about the topics at hand, before getting all high and mighty about it.

As shocking as this may be, there are homosexuals who go to church and believe in God; however, who don't believe in the "all or nothing" mentality that some people who follow religion believe.

Those two things can never be totally separated because no one will leave their beliefs out of topics such as this one ...

Almost all the same arguments as when blacks were segregated in the military.

Newsflash:

They are separated.

Have been since the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

If you can't keep them separated, perhaps you should refrain from political debates. It makes it sound like you don't understand what's being discussed.....

sorry kiddo, that is what makes up who I am and why I have the opinion I do. Nice try to force my faith out of me. When you make comments like that that try to force people out of thier belief systems, you are the one that sounds ignorant. I at least vote and respond based on my beliefs.

Also, seperation of church and state is only in reference to a state (country) supported religion. What you left wingers fail to grasp is that the government is not forcing anyone to choose a religion or belief system, but that enough of this country is christian, and is tired of having it's value system be the one that gets trampled. As a result, we are voting for people with like ideas. If you don't like it, get some representation of your beliefs elected.

(I'm now waiting for the insulting, fact-free rebuttal that I know is coming)

Unfortunately, that is becoming more and more false. The 11 states that voted to outlaw homosexual marriage proved that, amongst other things.

This is sweet

OK, Mr. Gay Enlightenment. Educate us then. Explain this whole "unknown" element to me. I'm surrounded by gays EVERY DAY for the past 12 years at my job. I've even been to their social functions, and God knows why, but I've even been into a gay bar and watched the shennanigans. What else do I need to be EDUCATED on? Do I need to know exactly what it feels like to have a dick in my ass?

Go pimp your disgusting values elsewhere.

I'm sure the next thing we'll hear is that looking at kiddie porn is OK too as long as no kids get hurt. It'll be OK because the guy was born that way - born to be turned on when he sees a naked 5 year old. What's the difference?

"What's the difference?"

Hold on a minute there, pal. You can not be serious in making the accusation that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing. Obviously you haven't been as educated as you claim to be on this subject, oh enlightened one. There's a BIG, BIG difference.

Just because you're "surrounded" by gays at your job, does not mean you actually know anything about them as a person. You know how you get to know someone? TALK to them. What a concept, huh?

So you've been to a gay bar. Um, good for you?

"Go pimp your disgusting values elsewhere." It'd be interesting to see you say the same things to a gay person when not hiding behind a computer screen. Just for the record, I'm not preaching anything. Preaching would be, "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it." I don't expect people to accept me. I've just been very lucky to have friends and family around me who do, because they're open-minded enough to not think of me as less of a person becasuse I'm gay.

Finally, I'm not going to start personally attacking someone, and calling them "disgusting", based on their private life. I'm above that.

Talk to them? I talk to them every day. I went to that bar with friends I had that happened to be gay.

You're getting me wrong. I'm not going to dislike someone solely based on the premise they're gay. What I am saying is that it's not natural and I don't see where it's appropriate to go around making everyone believe it's normal and OK. Because I strongly disagree with your sexual orientation doesn't mean I can't get past that with the individual. I tried to understand it. I don't.

Be gay. Go sodomize the entire San Francisco 49ers franchise for all I care. Just respect the wishes of heteros who don't want to and don't want their kids exposed to it.

BTW, Digitized, I have no problem telling you to pimp your disgusting values right to your face. You can tell me I'm full of shit if you'd like. Show up on one of the large 4x4 events I put on each year if you'd like. (AZ Run VI), March of 2006 is the next one, or come wheeling in Arizona ANY TIME and I'll show you our trails. I'm not "hiding" anywhere.

What, those kind of shennanigans don't happen at straight bars?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...don't get out much, do you.

What you right wingers fail to grasp is nobody is trying to trample your religion or belief system - as long as it's NOT on government property - you know, the same property that EVERYONE, even atheists, own.

Yeah, Mobycat, but it's different wathcing a bunch of guys slow dance with eachother, tongue wrestling, and grabbing at each other's packages.

Couldn't serve, I had heart surgery when I was a child. Tried to, and they turned me away. What about you?

What killing did I advocate? Helping to protect those who can't protect themselves? Ridding the world of another tyrant? Yeah, those are terrible things we are doing. I did read the bible, and while I can't remember the exact passage, I do remember Jesus talking about helping those who can't help themselves. Maybe those who fear the Bible like you should be the ones to read it, instead of trying to tell us what you think is in there?

I'm not MAKING anyone believe anything, am I?

And if you'd honestly ever get the chance to say to someone's face that you think they're behavior is "disgusting", I weep for your children.

Oh and Desert_Rat, once you find out what "normal" is, you be sure to let the rest of us know, ok?

You got that right. Didn't they used to vote with these?

There's your problem, you don't realize that it is public, and therefore able to be used by all. Put your atheist beliefs up right next to it, but as long as the government is not lining up the citizens to go to church, there is nothing wrong with a 10 commandments display, or a menorah, or the koran. NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO BELIEVE.

why yes, I believe they did!

It may be different, but #1 you didn't have to go to the bar, #2 you weren't forced to participate.

My wife and I went to a gay bar a few Halloweens back. It was different, but the interaction was actually much more tame than going to the "meat market" college bars around town. I had the courage... or more like the necessity, to use the bathroom. I half expected some sort of freak show in there but much to my surprise, people were... well... using the bathroom for it's intended purpose.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals... but the issue of gays in the military is a difficult one. How can you publicly integrate gays without destroying the unit's interaction? When the bullets start flying, I imagine homosexuals would fight just as well as heteros. But leading up to that point, there would be a lot of strife... gonads and strife.....

Don't tempt me, dude

Yes, public. And SHARED by all.

Show me one town that is going to allow someone to put up a sign that says, "There is no God."

And nobody is forcing you NOT to believe by removing the Ten Commandments. Nor does it affect your ability to believe. If it does, I'd say it has more to do with your ability to believe than said belief. Does removing the Ten Commandments make you doubt? Nah...don't think so. Why not put them in your front yard?

That's more your problem than their's. First time I saw two guys together - I walked into a party at college. The two were on the couch all over each other. It took me aback, I admit. But a split second later, I thought, "meh...whatever."

I couldn't care less what two people do together. As long as it doesn't affect me, which it doesn't, why should I? Nobody is getting hurt, so let them get on with it.

Unlike some people here, my reaction to being hit on by a guy is the usual: I tell them "no, thanks, I'm not gay." That has ended it in EVERY case. And I'd be willing to bet the farm I know more openly gay people than most here.

HOA.

Otherwise, I guaran-damn-tee you one of my fucking neighbors would.

Ah, but that you could definitely fight on religious freedom grounds.

Now, the *size* of them may be another matter.

You go girl

I was waiting for that....(all day, like).

SNAP!

I would, but someone would piss and moan and make me take it down. I live in a townhouse association.

The part that scares the libertarian side of me in all this is that the Christian will be the first one to shove the gun in your face, the Christian will be the first one to put the shackles on you, the Christian will be the first to send you to gulag, the Christian will be the first one to waste you and your family and your friends because the Christian can separate himself from his actions via the Bible. He's not shooting your wife, God is shooting your wife because that's God's will, the Christian is just the medium. It's not the Christian who ransacked your house and threatened you, it was God. The Christian was just the medium. It's not the Christian who will exert social control and make you live in fear, it's God who does that...the Christian is just doing his duty. It's not the Christian's fault--he was just doing God's will, just following orders.

And why would he care about you anyway? Aren't you just a deviant? Didn't you shove your disgusting beliefs down his throat when you had the chance? Did you think that you could just live your own life the way you see fit? Hubris! Did you think that you could chip away at family values with your disgusting belief that homosexuality is okay? Did you think that you could destroy America with your elitist liberalism?

Hutu vs. Tutsi, Serb vs. Croat, German vs. Jew, Christian vs. you. Same shit, different shirt.

Lemme tell you something, hombre. I'm half Scottish, half Persian. I'm hairy and I stink. Guess which side I got that from?

[Hint: It ain't the Persian side!!!]
[img]http://www.propstore.co.uk/images/products/31/bh-rubberaxea-dvd.jpe[/img]

This conversation has turned to the amusing side now.

So stop watching "Queer as Folk," bitch!

Sure have served. US Army Infantry and JAG.

Even got called back for this war.

Released now. Might get called up again.

I was born and raised a Baptist (in Hopatcong, NJ). Already read the Bible, cover to cover. This is more than I can say for most so-called Christians.

You've said how you feel about the practices of homosexuals. I don't like it either. However, the reason I won't bring Religion into the discussion is because it has no relavence in legislative or Military issues.

Wow, that the biggest load of Bullshit I have ever read.

Okay.

History books are filled to the bindings with instances in which people slaughtered each other en masse for the glory of Christ. In each instance, there was a dehumanization of those they murdered. They were called "filth", "deviants", "disgusting", "infidels", and in each instance the Christians were able to justify murdering by believing they were doing God's will, that they were defending their way of life by cleansing their culture of those who opposed God's way.

I believe, it is my honest opinion, that if there ever comes a time in this country when men knock on others' doors in the middle of the night and make them disappear, like has happened in so many other nations in recent history, that these men who will torture, murder, kidnap, cajole, and steal, will do so because they feel that they are defending their way of life, and that they have been called upon by a higher power.

And I do believe that that time will come. I don't believe that America, with its Civil War, witch hunts, lynchings, and depressions both economic and cultural, has seen its darkest hour.

What hasn't been brought up is the reason that "don't ask, don't tell" doesn't quite work. It does allow gays to serve, but there is always that hanging over their heads. You can be one of the best troops, not be open about who you are, and then have someone find out and get kicked out.

Even though you are not supposed to "ask, or tell" coworkers ask questions. So then gays have to come up with the "fictitious" boyfriends/girlfriends back home to have a reason they are not talking about who they are seeing and so on. Where coworkers will come in and talk about new relationships, or ups and downs in relationships, the gay troop has to suck it up and move on without talking about it.

I had a friend of mine that was in the Marines, and she was an awesome Marine, she was always going good. She had a friend that she had told about herself. They went to a party off base, and he got drunk and started being a jerk and wanted to get in a fight with someone. In trying to get him out of there he punched her and broke her nose. When they got back to the dorms, he told her that if he got in trouble for hitting her, he would tell on her. Some other people knew about it, and she got called in to her "command staff (I don't remember who), they already knew the story of him hitting her. So she talked to the chaplain about this, and he said to keep her from getting in trouble, she needed to tell her "command staff" about being gay, before it came from this guy. So he got in trouble for hitting her, and she got kicked out of the Marine Corp. She actually had to take someone in to talk to her Commander to say that yes, they had seen her kissing another woman. So letting one friend know about her, cost her a career she had wanted, because he was an ass.

I know when I was at Hickam AFB in Hawaii there was a sweep, where one person was getting kicked out for being gay, and they told him they would dishonorably discharge him if he didn't give names of other gay military members, so he just started listing them. There were AF, Army, and Navy people listed, I believe the Army and Navy didn't kick out the people listed, but the AF brought in the AF people and started processing them for discharge. Also with the threats of dishonorable if they didn't give up names. So with "don't ask, don't tell" you can keep to yourself, but it can still come back to bite you.

So that is one reason why people are pushing to get rid of "don't ask, don't tell", it doesn't mean they want to be completely open about being gay, but they don't want to worry about being kicked out.

Dusti
Active AF Dec 91-Aug 96
Air Guard Aug 96 - present

Yep. Thanks for describing the crusades about 700 years ago. Grubby little muslims are doing it today....every day....by strapping explosives to themselves and killing innocent people all around the world.

You're probably right that America hasn't yet seen its darkest hour. When the liberals succeed in unstitching the moral fabric the country was built upon (and they're doing a snappy job of it), there will be conflict. Hopefully when it happens, we all emerge with our country back.

And where did that Crusading tradition end? The IRA, the Anglican Church, the Inquisition, the Conquistadores, the Vatican, witch hunts, the churches and priests who condoned and conducted the wholesale slaughter of indigenous people on two continents, zie Germans in two world wars--just a tiny part of a very violent history, and all subscribers to a belief that killing is wrong, no matter the reason.
I'm just saying that when that conflict comes, and neighbor turns against neighbor, it'll be a religious man that hacks your childrens' hands off.

Being an ultra right wing Christian conservative who proudly served this country for 13 years, my opinion is this:

Gays are already allowed to serve. Don't ask, don't tell. If one were to come out and announce they were gay, act gay, make it a point to let everyone konw he/she was gay, well they probably wouldn't make it back form their tour of duty.

If you want to be gay in the military, fine. If you want to make it a point to be gay in the military, I wish you the best of luck making it back without any harm.

Us straight folk don't make it known to everyone that we are straight. We don't wear special rainbow pins or have secret code when I get the inklin' for a hummer. It is your choice, but I prefer you keeping it on the closet, because you know what queer-bait, no one cares one iotta if you are gay.

The only word that comes to mind is "IDIOT". Shahram, you are complete idiot. Why do you hate Christians so? And yes, you do hate us. Read everyone of your posts on the topic. Why? What have we ever done to you personally?

JeffW .... I understand totally what is being discussed but although in writing they are separate, once debates being perosnal morals and values are what drives most arguements or disagrements ... and usually most morals or values are derived from some sort of religion ... not always ... so although you say it was written in the end they are as intertwined as ever ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...you're kidding, right?

So, straight folk keep their significant other secret...don't get married...don't go to the bars to pick up others...never joke with each other about the opposite sex.

Yeah....riiiiiiiiiiigggghhhtt.

You can call me names all day, but I don't see you getting off of Jesus's tit long enough to refute my points. What you got? Nothin'?

Yep, Christians are horrible people. They never do any good, like found the greatest country in the world or anything like that. I think Shazam would be happier back in Iran where everyone lives so peacefully; where gays and women get to exist freely.

Once again shazam you display how far your head is up your ass ..... shut up


Amazing how ignorant people overlook such small details about respecting what the country they live in and rely on was built upon ... maybe Shazam would prefer if we were all as prejudice, racist and ignorant as he, then we could settle this with a duel at high noon

I still have not heard one refutation of a point I've made. Not one.

All the good that Christians have done? Like found the greatest nation on Earth? You mean they just made it up out of nowhere? No one was here before? Were the founding fathers really good Christians? Is it possible to be a good Christian while decimating an indigenous population and enslaving an entire race? Or does JC overlook little things like murder and enslavement of millions of people for the...ahem...greater good? Or does it not count when they're brown?

Yeah, keep bringing up Iran...nice. Can one of you form an argument that doesn't involve bringing up my ethnicity, or spitting out blind propaganda?

On second thought, why break character? Just call me some names, tell me to shut the fuck up, and oh yeah, remember to tell me to go back to where I came from.

Show me someplace better than here.

Was I not clear about blind propaganda?

And what do you mean by "better"? Better weather? Better beaches? Better food? Better political structure? "Better" is a subjective term that...wait a minute...why am I explaining this to you? Is there somebody here that can intelligently discuss this? If I wanted to spoon-feed retards, I'd work the mess tent at the Special Olympics. Jesus Fucking Christ.

The IRA is purely political. They simply want the same thing we wanted - their own free country. Unfortunately, you also have British loyalists who want Ulster to remain part of the UK. The fact that most of them are Catholic is irrelevant. Some of the loyalists are Catholics as well.

I agree with you that the IRA is a political entity, but you must admit they discern themselves by their Catholicism. Their recent "Irish Unity" socialist policies and their complete abandonment of religious imagery and language are a result of a PR retooling since the Good Friday Agreement.
My assertion was that Christians, as a people who subscribe to a non-violent theology, are often the first to give into violence. You're right, though. Maybe the IRA wasn't the perfect example of this.

hijacked thread.

Shazam, you speak of christians as if they are the only ones to have committed acts or war or hate or whatever over the past centuries .... shake you fucking head a little .... every culture, race or creed has historical events that by today's standards are not accepted, but back then they were the way of the world .... why don't you take your racism and hatred somewhere else you ignorant fool.

Maybe his whole point is not to be the first to cast stones?

He's not being racist. He's merely pointing out that for the most part, "born again christians" wrap themselves in a cloak of self appointed supremecy, touting that because of their acceptance of Christ, they are imperically correct. IE- I deal with it constantly. A co-worker (there're several) abuses his morality on a daily basis. Cheats on his wife and family and then says , "Jesus understands, that's why he gave his life for me.." F'n disgusting

you said it.

I don't think anyone in Ireland would agree with that.

Every time I think you can't get any dumber.....

.

If you're cool like Smith:

Now look who's name calling. It must be great to be so enlightened. You knew exactly what I meant when I said better. You can live anywhere in the world if you don't like what this country is coming to. Try Greenland. I hear it's nice this time of year. Take some of your liberal buddies with you and bounce ideas off the seals.

... this is getting funnier by the post ....

I for one salute you sharham,and alot of people here know what youre talking about, dont let these weirdos bring you down. People like rat are the fringe of the right wing fringe.

Shake em off man

As most Christian crusaders with the Ann Rynd hate multiplier, they have no idea of what a truly groovy guy JC was.

He would be just another "liberal intellectual coward"

Hell the term "Christian Crusader" is an oxymoron.

There have been many masacres in India trying to find out who is more Ghandi like.

Same shit happens all the time, and will keep on happening.

The more you hate, the more selfish and unforgiving you are to your brothers, the more of a "True Christian/True Muslim" you are.

“A criminal should be tortured and killed.”

“The poor deserve what they get for being so lazy.”

“Those faggots/niggers/wetbacks/kikes/dirtyirish/chinks/ragheads deserve it, they are always asking for "special rights".”

“Forgiveness is weakness, spare the rod, eye for an eye, lake of fire”

The problem is not Jesus, it’s the assholes that build churches like this:


Sneering while throwing an occasional can of old beans at:


They might as well build a 200 foot middle finger and point it to the clouds.

Find me a dirt poor little church in the favelas and Ill show you a house of God.

Their are plenty of good christians/muslims, the problem is that you will never hear of them. Their small voices are always shouted down by the louder and more attractive voices of hate and zeolousness.

Just like there are many thoughtful and just voices in the Republican party. But in this America of 2005 they will not be heard anytime soon.
Extremes are the norm, and our nation is a circus of the bizarre.

Well, I'm not much of a church goer.....

But I do have my moral beliefs. I never said anyone didn't have the right to exist and do what they want to do. All I ever said is that they keep it to themselves because I don't want to hear about it.

The world should not bow to the one percenter groups. Democracy is based on majority rule. When gays or Iranians become the majority in this country, I fully expect things to change. Until then, live with the system.

You guys need conservatives like me. It's a system of checks and balances for liberal whackos like yourselves.

That's EXACTLY how I feel about Christians. But, they can't keep their thumbs off of their neighbors' backs. And no, democracy is not based on majority rule. Mob rule is based on majority rule. A true democracy protects its minorities. A true democracy is based on the rights of the individual.

Conservatives need to get back to their libertarian roots. I don't think the founding fathers would have wanted either a welfare state OR a police state. And why should we have to choose?

PS--And I think gays belong in the military. Why? Because they've always been there. Should they be able to make a point of their homosexuality? Probably not, if they want to get ahead. Does it suck for them? Yeah, it probably does, but if they want to be there, they're gonna have to give up a piece of their civilian personality, just like every other service member. I don't understand why they'd want to be there, but who am I to judge? Most of their fellow service members, and the country at large, as much as 75% according to Desert_Rat, are just waiting for the go-ahead to stomp them into the ground. Why they'd want to sacrifice themselves for that, I'll never understand. But again, it's a personal decision, and if they want to be cannon-fodder for a society that hates their fucking guts, I say give 'em a rifle.

I don't get it. Am I a foreigner? When did I come to this country? I guess when my great-great-I-don't-know-how-many-greats-great-grandmother's vagina came over to this country and popped out a kid in the mid-1700's, I guess. What, I got a funny name and brown skin, so I can't be in your little club?

Where did I say anyone needed stomped into the ground? Don't confuse me for someone else. I don't advocate violent ways of resolving these types of differences.

Your comment around gays in the military makes more sense than anything else you've said...That's exactly what I'm saying. Being openly gay and flaunting it in the military is not appropriate. Deal with it. I don't want to hear about it, nor do I want my kids to have it stuck in their faces and being told they should celebrate gays.

Why the hell are we arguing? Cripes man.

yep. blame your great great whatever for pooping you out. technically, we're all foreigners, 'cept for a few that came over on foot way back when, during an ice age... does that really matter? You still seem to hate the country an awful lot. I couldn't give a rats ass what color your skin is. If you believe the US is the devil, and it's such an awful place, and not worth fighting for, then leave. Plain and simple.

Iceland, for one.

Too bad...it's a shame you don't have a clue what it means to be an American.

I'd like to see your source for that figure. Did you just pull that out of your ass?

Take your pick as to the number. Depending on where you look, it's between 1% and 7%.

And no, I didn't just "pull that out of my ass". I'm not gay. Things don't go into my ass and come out later...

But you want sources?

Try google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gay+population+united+states

Then start picking on results...

Wow. Didn't realize I needed to teach you how to search on the internet...

But here:

From this site: http://www.losangelesalmanac.com/topics/Population/po55.htm

But if you really want the definitive answer, the US Census Bureau statistics are summed up in this article:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/1000491_gl_partner_households.pdf

Please look through it, and you will see that only 0.99% of the population, as reported by the US Census Bureau (the ONLY official census in the United States), are gay.

So the gerbils never come back out?

nope. neither did the cat. (figure that's your next question)

I don't need to search, but apparently you need reading comprehension classes.

You said "less than one percent."

The percentage you gave from the census is of "COUPLED" households.

You DO know what the difference is between an individual and a couple, right?