Wow Tonka, I couldn't have said it better ... agree totally with you as that is my opinoin more or less ... people spend so much time trying to change things for themselves thinking that the world should revolve around their wants or beliefs or religion or whatever ... what gives you the right to say your religious beliefs or whatever are better then someone elses? ... just cause the western world was built on "christian" values and beleifs and is still for the majority populated by people following those beleifs doesn't mean it should change for small groups of people within the populus who think their shit don't stank ... just get over yourself people, there are more important things in life

Holy shit!

What in the world does the bible have to do with gays in the Military?

We are discussing Military law/policy. For those of us who realize what country/century we're in, there's a little thing call separation of church and state.

If that were true, it'd be one thing. But it's not.

Funny how that wasn't there when the country was founded, eh?

There are some religions that don't have a problem with it. And they are doing just fine in the morals department.

It all goes back to fear of change, which is something conservatives (who don't like it) and liberals (who sometimes want too much, too fast) have been struggling with since the beginning.

It also speaks to people's fear of the unknown, and not wanting to know. However, if people would just open their eyes just a little bit to see the bigger picture, that not everyone lives their life based on their sexual orientation, the world would be better off. I'm obviously not saying it must be accepted by everyone, I'm just saying people need to become better educated about the topics at hand, before getting all high and mighty about it.

As shocking as this may be, there are homosexuals who go to church and believe in God; however, who don't believe in the "all or nothing" mentality that some people who follow religion believe.

Those two things can never be totally separated because no one will leave their beliefs out of topics such as this one ...

Almost all the same arguments as when blacks were segregated in the military.

Newsflash:

They are separated.

Have been since the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

If you can't keep them separated, perhaps you should refrain from political debates. It makes it sound like you don't understand what's being discussed.....

sorry kiddo, that is what makes up who I am and why I have the opinion I do. Nice try to force my faith out of me. When you make comments like that that try to force people out of thier belief systems, you are the one that sounds ignorant. I at least vote and respond based on my beliefs.

Also, seperation of church and state is only in reference to a state (country) supported religion. What you left wingers fail to grasp is that the government is not forcing anyone to choose a religion or belief system, but that enough of this country is christian, and is tired of having it's value system be the one that gets trampled. As a result, we are voting for people with like ideas. If you don't like it, get some representation of your beliefs elected.

(I'm now waiting for the insulting, fact-free rebuttal that I know is coming)

Unfortunately, that is becoming more and more false. The 11 states that voted to outlaw homosexual marriage proved that, amongst other things.

This is sweet

OK, Mr. Gay Enlightenment. Educate us then. Explain this whole "unknown" element to me. I'm surrounded by gays EVERY DAY for the past 12 years at my job. I've even been to their social functions, and God knows why, but I've even been into a gay bar and watched the shennanigans. What else do I need to be EDUCATED on? Do I need to know exactly what it feels like to have a dick in my ass?

Go pimp your disgusting values elsewhere.

I'm sure the next thing we'll hear is that looking at kiddie porn is OK too as long as no kids get hurt. It'll be OK because the guy was born that way - born to be turned on when he sees a naked 5 year old. What's the difference?

"What's the difference?"

Hold on a minute there, pal. You can not be serious in making the accusation that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing. Obviously you haven't been as educated as you claim to be on this subject, oh enlightened one. There's a BIG, BIG difference.

Just because you're "surrounded" by gays at your job, does not mean you actually know anything about them as a person. You know how you get to know someone? TALK to them. What a concept, huh?

So you've been to a gay bar. Um, good for you?

"Go pimp your disgusting values elsewhere." It'd be interesting to see you say the same things to a gay person when not hiding behind a computer screen. Just for the record, I'm not preaching anything. Preaching would be, "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it." I don't expect people to accept me. I've just been very lucky to have friends and family around me who do, because they're open-minded enough to not think of me as less of a person becasuse I'm gay.

Finally, I'm not going to start personally attacking someone, and calling them "disgusting", based on their private life. I'm above that.

Talk to them? I talk to them every day. I went to that bar with friends I had that happened to be gay.

You're getting me wrong. I'm not going to dislike someone solely based on the premise they're gay. What I am saying is that it's not natural and I don't see where it's appropriate to go around making everyone believe it's normal and OK. Because I strongly disagree with your sexual orientation doesn't mean I can't get past that with the individual. I tried to understand it. I don't.

Be gay. Go sodomize the entire San Francisco 49ers franchise for all I care. Just respect the wishes of heteros who don't want to and don't want their kids exposed to it.

BTW, Digitized, I have no problem telling you to pimp your disgusting values right to your face. You can tell me I'm full of shit if you'd like. Show up on one of the large 4x4 events I put on each year if you'd like. (AZ Run VI), March of 2006 is the next one, or come wheeling in Arizona ANY TIME and I'll show you our trails. I'm not "hiding" anywhere.

What, those kind of shennanigans don't happen at straight bars?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...don't get out much, do you.

What you right wingers fail to grasp is nobody is trying to trample your religion or belief system - as long as it's NOT on government property - you know, the same property that EVERYONE, even atheists, own.

Yeah, Mobycat, but it's different wathcing a bunch of guys slow dance with eachother, tongue wrestling, and grabbing at each other's packages.

Couldn't serve, I had heart surgery when I was a child. Tried to, and they turned me away. What about you?

What killing did I advocate? Helping to protect those who can't protect themselves? Ridding the world of another tyrant? Yeah, those are terrible things we are doing. I did read the bible, and while I can't remember the exact passage, I do remember Jesus talking about helping those who can't help themselves. Maybe those who fear the Bible like you should be the ones to read it, instead of trying to tell us what you think is in there?

I'm not MAKING anyone believe anything, am I?

And if you'd honestly ever get the chance to say to someone's face that you think they're behavior is "disgusting", I weep for your children.

Oh and Desert_Rat, once you find out what "normal" is, you be sure to let the rest of us know, ok?

You got that right. Didn't they used to vote with these?

There's your problem, you don't realize that it is public, and therefore able to be used by all. Put your atheist beliefs up right next to it, but as long as the government is not lining up the citizens to go to church, there is nothing wrong with a 10 commandments display, or a menorah, or the koran. NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO BELIEVE.

why yes, I believe they did!

It may be different, but #1 you didn't have to go to the bar, #2 you weren't forced to participate.

My wife and I went to a gay bar a few Halloweens back. It was different, but the interaction was actually much more tame than going to the "meat market" college bars around town. I had the courage... or more like the necessity, to use the bathroom. I half expected some sort of freak show in there but much to my surprise, people were... well... using the bathroom for it's intended purpose.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals... but the issue of gays in the military is a difficult one. How can you publicly integrate gays without destroying the unit's interaction? When the bullets start flying, I imagine homosexuals would fight just as well as heteros. But leading up to that point, there would be a lot of strife... gonads and strife.....

Don't tempt me, dude

Yes, public. And SHARED by all.

Show me one town that is going to allow someone to put up a sign that says, "There is no God."

And nobody is forcing you NOT to believe by removing the Ten Commandments. Nor does it affect your ability to believe. If it does, I'd say it has more to do with your ability to believe than said belief. Does removing the Ten Commandments make you doubt? Nah...don't think so. Why not put them in your front yard?